5 ms·

There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I m

There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I mean, we have a tiny bit neanderthal DNA) Check out killer ape theory. Also look at how violent humans are to their own species.

satellite2 2y ago
Also Lawrence Keeley, War Before Civilization
pfannkuchen 2y ago
> Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Also I think that organisms feel most threatened by same-niche competitors, and least threatened by non-competitors. Similar but just different enough is like the worst case in terms of same-niche competition. Like how geese and ducks will act really adversarial towards each other, and then a beaver can just wander through and no one cares.
- scotty79 2y ago
  > Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. Nature has no concept of any of those. But the clumping is repeatable enough at everyday energies so that it's useful to think about it in those terms.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    > You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. You could say it, but they are real things that interact with the environment. DNA is a real thing that interacts with the environment. Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world.
    - scotty79 2y ago
      It's just clumps of matter. Ssme way species is just a clump of individuals. > Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world. My point exactly.
      - mmooss 2y ago
        That clump doesn't exist, except in rare circumstances - it's conceptual, which is why you use a metaphor. The clump of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that make a water molecule is actual, real - you can touch it and see it.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    My point is that it isn’t really unexpected from a biological perspective that humans are violent towards “their own species”, because our instincts don’t know about the concept of species. My impression is that people who bemoan man’s inhumanity to man typically act as if all humans should be interpreted as family members by our instincts and somehow they aren’t due to culture, and I don’t think that line of thinking is supported by biology (because species is a construct).
    - scotty79 2y ago
      I think it's compared to other animals who fight a lot (for mates for example) but it rarely ends with death.
      - pfannkuchen 2y ago
        I’m reacting to the quality of the post’s inference on how humans would behave towards non-humans. Where the inference is: if they do this to their friends, imagine what they would do to their enemies. I’m arguing that the inference is invalid because other humans aren’t their friends, because the human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, and if anything I would imagine that it would diminish. If it diminishes, then humans could treat human-like species further away from them better than they treat rival humans, if their niche isn’t threatened by the human-like (but-not-human) species. So the inference has a hole in it. I’m just pointing out that this man’s inference has a flat. But really I’m just interested in engaging people on this topic, so I poke holes in the comments of people who seem interested, to get a reaction. Sometimes they knock over my argument and I learn something new.
        scotty79 2y ago
        > human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, Yeah, that sounds accurate. > if anything I would imagine that it would diminish Not sure what gives you that hope. People didn't really have diverse behaviors towards animals dependant on how human-like animals are.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  >Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species species are clades, and our genes know everything there is to know about clades
- dotancohen 2y ago
  > Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Species is a construct because it is a useful concept to bin or categorize traits. The woke ideology of pretending that all constructs are borne of "inequality" and "injustice" has no place in the sciences, where binning is a useful tool for studying populations, not individuals. And yes, binning people into races, cultures, and nationalities is often useful too. Especially when they often self-identify as parts of those groups.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    Calling any idea "woke ideology" doesn't sound like any science I'm familiar with.
mmooss 2y ago
So no evidence, just more of the cutting edge, widely followed, paper-thin theory of inevitable evil. > There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I mean, we have a tiny bit neanderthal DNA) That's not an indication at all. It's an outcome. > Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Humanity has grown to 8 billion organisms - the evidence seems otherwise.
- csomar 2y ago
  I think our growth to 8 billion was a consequence of technology advancement rather than our acceptance of each other. While I don't disagree with the parent that humans do exterminate each other, they seem to be also keen to assimilate the other into their "own" line.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    Also, we are more peaceful species now, than 40 000 years ago.
    - ljf 2y ago
      On what do you based that? (Genuinely interested)
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        As follows: The distribution of already existing traits, changes pretty fast (20-50 generations is fairly much) when the environment and evolutionary pressure changes. And, large parts of the planet, haven't been invaded and the men killed, women raped, the last hundreds of years, in some places not even the last thousand years. Then, violent traits (reproducing by killing all men in the tribe nearby, raping the women) start fading away. (Not noticeable in a single lifetime though)
    - b800h 2y ago
      Perhaps all that Neanderthal DNA we assimilated changed us. Cold-adapted mammals tend to be more cooperative within their species.
b800h 2y ago
"Tiny" is understating it, given that 2% of my genome is Neanderthal.
t-3 2y ago
Humans actually aren't particularly aggressive compared to other animals. The reason human-human conflicts are so deadly is that we're rather fragile and have a very long maturation period.

satellite2 2y ago

Also Lawrence Keeley, War Before Civilization

pfannkuchen 2y ago

> Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Also I think that organisms feel most threatened by same-niche competitors, and least threatened by non-competitors. Similar but just different enough is like the worst case in terms of same-niche competition. Like how geese and ducks will act really adversarial towards each other, and then a beaver can just wander through and no one cares.

scotty79 2y ago
> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. Nature has no concept of any of those. But the clumping is repeatable enough at everyday energies so that it's useful to think about it in those terms.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > You could also say that atoms are a construct, also molecules and nuclei. You could say it, but they are real things that interact with the environment. DNA is a real thing that interacts with the environment. Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    It's just clumps of matter. Ssme way species is just a clump of individuals. > Species, the periodic table, etc. are constructs. They are useful because they help us understand the world. My point exactly.
    - mmooss 2y ago
      That clump doesn't exist, except in rare circumstances - it's conceptual, which is why you use a metaphor. The clump of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that make a water molecule is actual, real - you can touch it and see it.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  My point is that it isn’t really unexpected from a biological perspective that humans are violent towards “their own species”, because our instincts don’t know about the concept of species. My impression is that people who bemoan man’s inhumanity to man typically act as if all humans should be interpreted as family members by our instincts and somehow they aren’t due to culture, and I don’t think that line of thinking is supported by biology (because species is a construct).
  - scotty79 2y ago
    I think it's compared to other animals who fight a lot (for mates for example) but it rarely ends with death.
    - pfannkuchen 2y ago
      I’m reacting to the quality of the post’s inference on how humans would behave towards non-humans. Where the inference is: if they do this to their friends, imagine what they would do to their enemies. I’m arguing that the inference is invalid because other humans aren’t their friends, because the human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, and if anything I would imagine that it would diminish. If it diminishes, then humans could treat human-like species further away from them better than they treat rival humans, if their niche isn’t threatened by the human-like (but-not-human) species. So the inference has a hole in it. I’m just pointing out that this man’s inference has a flat. But really I’m just interested in engaging people on this topic, so I poke holes in the comments of people who seem interested, to get a reaction. Sometimes they knock over my argument and I learn something new.
      - scotty79 2y ago
        > human system goes from kin :) to OUTSIDER pretty fast. I’m not aware of evidence that it intensifies beyond OUTSIDER, Yeah, that sounds accurate. > if anything I would imagine that it would diminish Not sure what gives you that hope. People didn't really have diverse behaviors towards animals dependant on how human-like animals are.
fsckboy 2y ago
>Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species species are clades, and our genes know everything there is to know about clades
dotancohen 2y ago
> Species is a construct though, our genes have no idea about species. Species is a construct because it is a useful concept to bin or categorize traits. The woke ideology of pretending that all constructs are borne of "inequality" and "injustice" has no place in the sciences, where binning is a useful tool for studying populations, not individuals. And yes, binning people into races, cultures, and nationalities is often useful too. Especially when they often self-identify as parts of those groups.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  Calling any idea "woke ideology" doesn't sound like any science I'm familiar with.

mmooss 2y ago

So no evidence, just more of the cutting edge, widely followed, paper-thin theory of inevitable evil. > There are indicators, for example, the neanderthals and all other human like great apes have mysteriously disappeared except for us. (Or gotten assimilated, I mean, we have a tiny bit neanderthal DNA) That's not an indication at all. It's an outcome. > Also look at how violent humans are to their own species. Humanity has grown to 8 billion organisms - the evidence seems otherwise.

csomar 2y ago
I think our growth to 8 billion was a consequence of technology advancement rather than our acceptance of each other. While I don't disagree with the parent that humans do exterminate each other, they seem to be also keen to assimilate the other into their "own" line.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  Also, we are more peaceful species now, than 40 000 years ago.
  - ljf 2y ago
    On what do you based that? (Genuinely interested)
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      As follows: The distribution of already existing traits, changes pretty fast (20-50 generations is fairly much) when the environment and evolutionary pressure changes. And, large parts of the planet, haven't been invaded and the men killed, women raped, the last hundreds of years, in some places not even the last thousand years. Then, violent traits (reproducing by killing all men in the tribe nearby, raping the women) start fading away. (Not noticeable in a single lifetime though)
  - b800h 2y ago
    Perhaps all that Neanderthal DNA we assimilated changed us. Cold-adapted mammals tend to be more cooperative within their species.

b800h 2y ago

"Tiny" is understating it, given that 2% of my genome is Neanderthal.

t-3 2y ago

Humans actually aren't particularly aggressive compared to other animals. The reason human-human conflicts are so deadly is that we're rather fragile and have a very long maturation period.