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I'm always a little confused by people such as this one who loved Downward Spiral so much. It was a slide into confusion started in Broken, away from the honest

I'm always a little confused by people such as this one who loved Downward Spiral so much. It was a slide into confusion started in Broken, away from the honesty and struggle embodied in Pretty Hate Machine. It was the Pinnacle of the band's bowing to the commercial market and fall into anger which it didn't recover, IMO, from until reaching a more mature pinnacle (at least in regard to what I wanted from it and what drew me to it) on With Teeth. Right Where It Belongs is one of my all-time favorite songs wherein they both challenge the exterior and interior to greater truth, greater honesty.

DanHulton 2y ago
Well, I think they address why they loved it so much in the article, hell, before the first section is finished, even. Music can be many things at once, and you can be touched by some of the things it is, even if others don't hit for you.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  I can't deny the first section described that. My confusion isn't about what the claims are or what surface knowledge presents. As a peer comment noted, an outlet for anger is part of it, a starting point, and was useful to me too. My comment is about how that album more than others invited me to stay stuck there, remain clad and "protected" from my vulnerability. Tearing down, destroying, and randomizing are always easier than solving, creating, healing, loving, and seeing things just/right. More relevant in this context, startups are hard. Being useful is work. The beauty in the brashness of NIN is what I believe starts with feeling less alone in your heart and leads to loving yourself and spreading that into your ambient surrounds. As you note, I am sharing what this art is to me. I cannot say that must or should be what it is to any other person. I still hope that we can be less ashamed and equally vigorous with our caring.
  - scns 2y ago
    > feeling less alone For me it was The Knife. Making me realize there are other people feeling the same way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdVVPOcLhM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdVVPOcLhM edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeQLO43a2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeQLO43a2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPD8Ja64mRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPD8Ja64mRU you might know a cover of this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCE48VnI1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCE48VnI1o
    - ilikepi 2y ago
      Silent Shout is a fantastic album, but "Heartbeats" is the GOAT. I feel a bit sad that The Knife evolved into a strange place in their later work that I don't really understand. I guess my tastes are a little too basic to follow along.
      - phaedrix 2y ago
        It's not you, they unfortunately slid into self indulgence.
DrillShopper 2y ago
Being an angry young man drew me to Downward Spiral, if I'm being honest.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  I appreciate the admission. I can't deny benefitting from that too. More in my response to this comments peer.
keiferski 2y ago
I always saw TDS as a concept album in the vein of his later, more recent soundtracks. It feels more coherently atmospheric in ways earlier albums didn’t, to me. With Teeth is actually where I think he went too far into “regular rock music” territory, with the result that it sounds generic and flat to me.
- kbrisso 2y ago
  With Teeth is his first sober album. He wanted the stripped back rock feel so it would sound different from the previous.
TOGoS 2y ago
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm sort of with you, though. That said, I've come to appreciate The Downward Spiral. But if that was Sonic The Hedgehog 2, With Teeth (and parts of Year Zero) was Sonic The Hedgehog 3. i.e. the master work that built on everything they had learned before they ran out of ideas. The Slip is their Sonic and Knuckles, where they start going in a different, less-cool direction. Of course this is all very much my opinion, man. :)
- RASBR89 2y ago
  Downward Spiral - Sonic 2 The Fragile - Sonic 3
- kridsdale1 2y ago
  This is my favorite metaphor today, and I read TFA which has lots.
relaxing 2y ago
I think that’s the first I’ve heard The Downward Spiral described as too commercial. You don’t think Pretty Hate Machine is filled with anger and confusion? I think if you were to look within, you’d find you were the right age to be receptive to the earlier albums, and by ‘94 you’d grown out of the level of angst.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  In '94 my angst was still accelerating. You're right that PHM contained expressions of anger and confusion. It just felt more whole than TDS. RE commercial success [0]: > Nine Inch Nails' second studio album, The Downward Spiral, entered the Billboard 200 at number two,[57] and is the band's highest seller in the US, over four million copies, among five million worldwide.[58] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Inch_Nails https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Inch_Nails
  - relaxing 2y ago
    The album sold because he found a way to say “fuck you like an animal” and get it played on the radio. It has to be the least commercial-sounding record to chart that high by far.
    - erikerikson 2y ago
      Yes, sex and violence sell.
    - prairiedogg 2y ago
      The best way I ever heard this sentiment phrased was "the most radio friendly single on the album had the refrain 'I want to fuck you like an animal'".
    - borgdefenser 2y ago
      You also can't separate the song from the music video. It is a really catchy song, really cool video that got a ton of MTV air time, really interesting electronic music and he found a way to say “fuck you like an animal”. I was never a big NIN fan but I remember instantly loving that music video the first time I seen it on MTV.
alisonatwork 2y ago
Eh, to me the lyrics are what make NIN hard to deal with as a grown adult. Meanwhile Ruiner (Version) remains the best song they ever did. Charlie Clouser's production was unparalleled at the time in the rock/industrial arena. So clean, so meticulous, it was life-changing. Over in the electronic space there were a few psytrance artists doing similar stuff, but I feel like that style of production only bubbled up into mainstream pop in the 2000s (think Britney Spears - Piece of Me). Nowadays most everything sounds just as pristine, but that just goes to show how well a track like Ruiner holds up. The opening 2 minutes still send a shiver down my spine - they're perfection! I think that's why the TDS/FDTS era of NIN is remembered so fondly - because it's the brief period where some of their stuff sounded ahead of its time.
- erikerikson 2y ago
  The sonic cleanliness of NIN is absolutely one of the things that I love and I agree that PHM was raw compared to a far more refined TDS and what follows. The intentional arrangement or emphasis of sounds so that you do or don't have to deconflict and separate them increases the emotional and psychological fabric of the music immensely. This makes me think of a past friend who kind of blew my mind by reporting and then insisting (when I struggled to believe) that he didn't really listen to the words in music and sometimes didn't even hear them. I totally appreciate that many people experience music almost exclusively as a tonal experience and it's fascinating to me. Music can be great on that level. I can't separate it and appreciate a song that has more thoroughly attended to more of my dimensions. Songs that satisfy that cleanliness only tonally seem incomplete and far less satisfying down to jarring. Examples of that end of the spectrum include happy songs about domestic violence that don't also punch with irony, where it's like they haven't figured out what an abusive existence they describe. I get the importance of sending telegrams from experiences we have had but too often it feels like they're going to be heard in ways that subconsciously replicate ala meme theory (at least what I know of the academic form). For me, music is an assemblage of the aural, intellectual, emotional, cultural, and surely more as a form of compressed communication. My favorite songs sound incredible while arranging every piece you reasonably need to assemble some pinnacle thought or understanding. A very grand-in-scope example is Pink Floyd's (actually written by Polly Samson) High Hopes which discusses social and economic dynamics. I heard it later in life and it is of a much different sound but satisfies the same passionate desire in me. Another includes Bjork's Mutual Core discussing the challenges of navigating the paradoxes of individual agency within romantic unions under differences of being and definition. These and those like them each seem like someone who has done the work to drill into multi-dimensional clarity and done the work to share it in a way that reinforces and works to elevate humanity. Sorry to carry on so but thank you for stimulating this one.

DanHulton 2y ago

Well, I think they address why they loved it so much in the article, hell, before the first section is finished, even. Music can be many things at once, and you can be touched by some of the things it is, even if others don't hit for you.

erikerikson 2y ago
I can't deny the first section described that. My confusion isn't about what the claims are or what surface knowledge presents. As a peer comment noted, an outlet for anger is part of it, a starting point, and was useful to me too. My comment is about how that album more than others invited me to stay stuck there, remain clad and "protected" from my vulnerability. Tearing down, destroying, and randomizing are always easier than solving, creating, healing, loving, and seeing things just/right. More relevant in this context, startups are hard. Being useful is work. The beauty in the brashness of NIN is what I believe starts with feeling less alone in your heart and leads to loving yourself and spreading that into your ambient surrounds. As you note, I am sharing what this art is to me. I cannot say that must or should be what it is to any other person. I still hope that we can be less ashamed and equally vigorous with our caring.
- scns 2y ago
  > feeling less alone For me it was The Knife. Making me realize there are other people feeling the same way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdVVPOcLhM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDdVVPOcLhM edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeQLO43a2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UeQLO43a2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPD8Ja64mRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPD8Ja64mRU you might know a cover of this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCE48VnI1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCE48VnI1o
  - ilikepi 2y ago
    Silent Shout is a fantastic album, but "Heartbeats" is the GOAT. I feel a bit sad that The Knife evolved into a strange place in their later work that I don't really understand. I guess my tastes are a little too basic to follow along.
    - phaedrix 2y ago
      It's not you, they unfortunately slid into self indulgence.

DrillShopper 2y ago

Being an angry young man drew me to Downward Spiral, if I'm being honest.

erikerikson 2y ago
I appreciate the admission. I can't deny benefitting from that too. More in my response to this comments peer.

keiferski 2y ago

I always saw TDS as a concept album in the vein of his later, more recent soundtracks. It feels more coherently atmospheric in ways earlier albums didn’t, to me. With Teeth is actually where I think he went too far into “regular rock music” territory, with the result that it sounds generic and flat to me.

kbrisso 2y ago
With Teeth is his first sober album. He wanted the stripped back rock feel so it would sound different from the previous.

TOGoS 2y ago

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm sort of with you, though. That said, I've come to appreciate The Downward Spiral. But if that was Sonic The Hedgehog 2, With Teeth (and parts of Year Zero) was Sonic The Hedgehog 3. i.e. the master work that built on everything they had learned before they ran out of ideas. The Slip is their Sonic and Knuckles, where they start going in a different, less-cool direction. Of course this is all very much my opinion, man. :)

RASBR89 2y ago
Downward Spiral - Sonic 2 The Fragile - Sonic 3
kridsdale1 2y ago
This is my favorite metaphor today, and I read TFA which has lots.

relaxing 2y ago

I think that’s the first I’ve heard The Downward Spiral described as too commercial. You don’t think Pretty Hate Machine is filled with anger and confusion? I think if you were to look within, you’d find you were the right age to be receptive to the earlier albums, and by ‘94 you’d grown out of the level of angst.

erikerikson 2y ago
In '94 my angst was still accelerating. You're right that PHM contained expressions of anger and confusion. It just felt more whole than TDS. RE commercial success [0]: > Nine Inch Nails' second studio album, The Downward Spiral, entered the Billboard 200 at number two,[57] and is the band's highest seller in the US, over four million copies, among five million worldwide.[58] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Inch_Nails https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Inch_Nails
- relaxing 2y ago
  The album sold because he found a way to say “fuck you like an animal” and get it played on the radio. It has to be the least commercial-sounding record to chart that high by far.
  - erikerikson 2y ago
    Yes, sex and violence sell.
  - prairiedogg 2y ago
    The best way I ever heard this sentiment phrased was "the most radio friendly single on the album had the refrain 'I want to fuck you like an animal'".
  - borgdefenser 2y ago
    You also can't separate the song from the music video. It is a really catchy song, really cool video that got a ton of MTV air time, really interesting electronic music and he found a way to say “fuck you like an animal”. I was never a big NIN fan but I remember instantly loving that music video the first time I seen it on MTV.

alisonatwork 2y ago

Eh, to me the lyrics are what make NIN hard to deal with as a grown adult. Meanwhile Ruiner (Version) remains the best song they ever did. Charlie Clouser's production was unparalleled at the time in the rock/industrial arena. So clean, so meticulous, it was life-changing. Over in the electronic space there were a few psytrance artists doing similar stuff, but I feel like that style of production only bubbled up into mainstream pop in the 2000s (think Britney Spears - Piece of Me). Nowadays most everything sounds just as pristine, but that just goes to show how well a track like Ruiner holds up. The opening 2 minutes still send a shiver down my spine - they're perfection! I think that's why the TDS/FDTS era of NIN is remembered so fondly - because it's the brief period where some of their stuff sounded ahead of its time.

erikerikson 2y ago
The sonic cleanliness of NIN is absolutely one of the things that I love and I agree that PHM was raw compared to a far more refined TDS and what follows. The intentional arrangement or emphasis of sounds so that you do or don't have to deconflict and separate them increases the emotional and psychological fabric of the music immensely. This makes me think of a past friend who kind of blew my mind by reporting and then insisting (when I struggled to believe) that he didn't really listen to the words in music and sometimes didn't even hear them. I totally appreciate that many people experience music almost exclusively as a tonal experience and it's fascinating to me. Music can be great on that level. I can't separate it and appreciate a song that has more thoroughly attended to more of my dimensions. Songs that satisfy that cleanliness only tonally seem incomplete and far less satisfying down to jarring. Examples of that end of the spectrum include happy songs about domestic violence that don't also punch with irony, where it's like they haven't figured out what an abusive existence they describe. I get the importance of sending telegrams from experiences we have had but too often it feels like they're going to be heard in ways that subconsciously replicate ala meme theory (at least what I know of the academic form). For me, music is an assemblage of the aural, intellectual, emotional, cultural, and surely more as a form of compressed communication. My favorite songs sound incredible while arranging every piece you reasonably need to assemble some pinnacle thought or understanding. A very grand-in-scope example is Pink Floyd's (actually written by Polly Samson) High Hopes which discusses social and economic dynamics. I heard it later in life and it is of a much different sound but satisfies the same passionate desire in me. Another includes Bjork's Mutual Core discussing the challenges of navigating the paradoxes of individual agency within romantic unions under differences of being and definition. These and those like them each seem like someone who has done the work to drill into multi-dimensional clarity and done the work to share it in a way that reinforces and works to elevate humanity. Sorry to carry on so but thank you for stimulating this one.