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I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen u

I can't agree with the underlying idea of this article at all. 1) hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric. I don't see how that is true. Hydrogen uses an ICE that is much cheaper to purchase than batteries + motor. Of course early stage niche designs might be more expensive, but that doesn't mean that it will be more expensive at scale 2) somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot, because it was in one case. Bus depots often have their own diesel, why couldn't they have hydrogen? 3) it is much quicker to refuell a hydrogen vehicle than a battery vehicle. Superchargers can recharge a piddly car battery in 20 minutes. How much larger would they need to be to recharge a bus and how long would it take? How big a grid connection would you need to have 100 buses on charge overnight. It doesn't sound trivial at all 4) depreciation. An electric car depreciates very quickly because the battery lifetime is short. Think of how many batteries a bus would need, and write that down over 3 years. A hydrogen bus would have a similar lifetime to a diesel however 5) JCB who make earth moving and farm equipment realised that batteries would never have the energy density for those uses has gone all-in on hydrogen and has demonstrators of its main machines, a hydrogen bowser that can be brought to the field and a very compact hydrogen plant with solar panels that can allow a major user like a bus company to make their own hydrogen on site. 6) hydrogen can be produced using surplus electricity, making good use of renewables by storing the energy. I would say that rather than transport operators demonstrating naive thinking, they have demonstrated their own. I'm also suprised by the people on here think that this must be the result of advicacy from the petrochemical industry, then going on to shill for the electric vehicle industry themselves. The electric car industry is only alive due to subsidy, and is only just alive at that.

elric 2y ago
> hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric Fuel cells are presumably more expensive than battery packs. The former are barely produced, while the latter are made in gigafactories. You can't just fill up the gas tank with hydrogen, it will leak out and/or cause a violent reaction with oxygen. > somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot You can't just store hydrogen in a tank and call it a day. Again, it leaks through everything and is rather reactive. Maybe it could be stored on site, but even then it'll still need to get there. > it is much quicker to refuell a hydrogen vehicle than a battery vehicle Not intrinsically. Buses could be built with swappable battery packs. > allow a major user like a bus company to make their own hydrogen on site. How many solar panels and how much water you need to power those 100 buses you mention? Hydrolysis isn't very efficient. > hydrogen can be produced using surplus electricity, making good use of renewables by storing the energy In theory, maybe. In practice, it is difficult to store at scale.
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  > Fuel cells are presumably more expensive than battery packs. Maybe, but a tank of hydrogen burnt through an ICE is much cheaper than either For your storage and production concerns, here it is working in practice https://youtu.be/5rk1RsT64o4?si=LLmX51kT2_YeRp2g https://youtu.be/5rk1RsT64o4?si=LLmX51kT2_YeRp2g
  - Tade0 2y ago
    > Maybe, but a tank of hydrogen burnt through an ICE is much cheaper than either It's really not. Most of the hydrogen bus projects were killed by the surprising cost of fueling - approximately 4x the cost of electricity. And no wonder: just the energy wasted producing hydrogen and then using it in a fuel cell is enough to build a battery pack that will last the equivalent.
    - jimnotgym 2y ago
      Is that the cost of the fuel itself, or the high cost of providing it in a world with little infrastructure?
      - Tade0 2y ago
        At its best, generating hydrogen and then putting it through a fuel cell is less than 50% efficient, and that's discounting all the losses present both in BEVs and hydrogen cars. Hydrogen combustion engines slash that efficiency in half. Even if you handwave over the hardware required to do all that, the cost is double that of equivalent electricity.
globular-toast 2y ago
The neat thing with JCB is the hydrogen engines are very similar to the diesel engines, and everything else (transmission etc) is the same. In fact, the engines use the exact same block but with a slightly different head. That means all the expertise and parts required to service these machines in the field is already there. If a battery bus breaks down it'll be on the back of a diesel lorry and back to the depot.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  Ever met a diesel mechanic? Every one I've ever come across has a very distinctive diesel cologne. I worry how this plays out in the field when combined with a 10,000psi gas which is explosive is almost any mixture including oxygen.
  - jimnotgym 2y ago
    How are we going to drive earth moving machinery then? Stick with diesel?
    - defrost 2y ago
      The greatest tonnages are dug out with bench mining excavators. These work 24/7/365 round the clock to fill trucks from bench faces and empty into trains. An area such as the Pilbara region moves a billion tonne of raw material a year and ships most of that. These excavators are electric with cables that drag behind them .. they move very slowly across bench faces and then move back across the face again, it's not like they are very mobile (aside from swinging, dipping, lifting, dumping, returning, etc.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-enXeOnKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-enXeOnKE
      - jimnotgym 2y ago
        Very interesting, but it is a niche specific case that doesn't answer the question at all. Imagine a tractor in a field. What is the solution for that?
jonp888 2y ago
1) Hydrogen combustion engines exist, but are extremely inefficent. For this reason all Hydrogen buses currently in use use fuel cells, which are expensive and complicated. That you were unaware of this makes me doubt the rest of your commentary. 2) There is a huge existing logistics network which conveys diesel to all corners of the world. The same, in a sense for electricity. For Hydrogen this doesn't exist. 5) The chairman of JCB wrote to all his employees before the Brexit referendum to say how he was absolutely convinced it would be a brilliant success and would lead to great prosperity for Britain. So probably not the best people to take strategy advice from. In Europe at least, battery powered trains and commercial vehicles have been in use for decades simply because they were the best solution for certain use cases, before anyone thought about the climate or subsidies related to it. Hydrogen only came along once subsidies did. In every single case I am aware in my country Hydrogen vehicles were only purchased because politicians insisted that Hydrogen MUST be used, and these projects have pretty much all been disastrous. Recent in my city a number of diesel trains were replaced with battery and hydrogen. The Hydrogen trains lasted two weeks before they gave up and went back to Diesel. The battery ones are running perfectly.
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  > 5) The chairman of JCB wrote to all his employees before the Brexit referendum to say how he was absolutely convinced it would be a brilliant success and would lead to great prosperity for Britain. So probably not the best people to take strategy advice from. Thank you, a template ad hominem. I'll cut that out and put it in my scrap book
- porridgeraisin 2y ago
  > 5) Ah yes, his opinion on a completely unrelated highly partisan thing being wrong in hindsight implies his opinion about the company he is the very chairman of isn't trustworthy. Maybe you should be the last person we all learn basic logic from :-)
numpad0 2y ago
Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.
- looofooo0 2y ago
  We are at 60$ on the cell Level.
- VBprogrammer 2y ago
  And the number of hydrogen powered vehicles sold year on year is currently decreasing. As are the number of places to fill them up in the UK at least.
  - jimnotgym 2y ago
    Yes, because government subsidies switched to electric cars.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Because only Toyota makes them and mostly for publicity, yes. But my points are 1) hydrogen cars are pure EVs too, just not lithium, and 2) hydrogen primary battery thing isn't that expensive, or finicky for that matter. I'm not like a hydrogen believer, I just loathe incorrect technical understandings on the Internet, like any techy person would.
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  JCBs engines are piston engines as some other commentators have mentioned

elric 2y ago

> hydrogen buses must be more expensive than electric Fuel cells are presumably more expensive than battery packs. The former are barely produced, while the latter are made in gigafactories. You can't just fill up the gas tank with hydrogen, it will leak out and/or cause a violent reaction with oxygen. > somehow the hydrogen fuel must be a long way from the bus depot You can't just store hydrogen in a tank and call it a day. Again, it leaks through everything and is rather reactive. Maybe it could be stored on site, but even then it'll still need to get there. > it is much quicker to refuell a hydrogen vehicle than a battery vehicle Not intrinsically. Buses could be built with swappable battery packs. > allow a major user like a bus company to make their own hydrogen on site. How many solar panels and how much water you need to power those 100 buses you mention? Hydrolysis isn't very efficient. > hydrogen can be produced using surplus electricity, making good use of renewables by storing the energy In theory, maybe. In practice, it is difficult to store at scale.

jimnotgym 2y ago
> Fuel cells are presumably more expensive than battery packs. Maybe, but a tank of hydrogen burnt through an ICE is much cheaper than either For your storage and production concerns, here it is working in practice https://youtu.be/5rk1RsT64o4?si=LLmX51kT2_YeRp2g https://youtu.be/5rk1RsT64o4?si=LLmX51kT2_YeRp2g
- Tade0 2y ago
  > Maybe, but a tank of hydrogen burnt through an ICE is much cheaper than either It's really not. Most of the hydrogen bus projects were killed by the surprising cost of fueling - approximately 4x the cost of electricity. And no wonder: just the energy wasted producing hydrogen and then using it in a fuel cell is enough to build a battery pack that will last the equivalent.
  - jimnotgym 2y ago
    Is that the cost of the fuel itself, or the high cost of providing it in a world with little infrastructure?
    - Tade0 2y ago
      At its best, generating hydrogen and then putting it through a fuel cell is less than 50% efficient, and that's discounting all the losses present both in BEVs and hydrogen cars. Hydrogen combustion engines slash that efficiency in half. Even if you handwave over the hardware required to do all that, the cost is double that of equivalent electricity.

globular-toast 2y ago

The neat thing with JCB is the hydrogen engines are very similar to the diesel engines, and everything else (transmission etc) is the same. In fact, the engines use the exact same block but with a slightly different head. That means all the expertise and parts required to service these machines in the field is already there. If a battery bus breaks down it'll be on the back of a diesel lorry and back to the depot.

VBprogrammer 2y ago
Ever met a diesel mechanic? Every one I've ever come across has a very distinctive diesel cologne. I worry how this plays out in the field when combined with a 10,000psi gas which is explosive is almost any mixture including oxygen.
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  How are we going to drive earth moving machinery then? Stick with diesel?
  - defrost 2y ago
    The greatest tonnages are dug out with bench mining excavators. These work 24/7/365 round the clock to fill trucks from bench faces and empty into trains. An area such as the Pilbara region moves a billion tonne of raw material a year and ships most of that. These excavators are electric with cables that drag behind them .. they move very slowly across bench faces and then move back across the face again, it's not like they are very mobile (aside from swinging, dipping, lifting, dumping, returning, etc.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-enXeOnKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-enXeOnKE
    - jimnotgym 2y ago
      Very interesting, but it is a niche specific case that doesn't answer the question at all. Imagine a tractor in a field. What is the solution for that?

jonp888 2y ago

1) Hydrogen combustion engines exist, but are extremely inefficent. For this reason all Hydrogen buses currently in use use fuel cells, which are expensive and complicated. That you were unaware of this makes me doubt the rest of your commentary. 2) There is a huge existing logistics network which conveys diesel to all corners of the world. The same, in a sense for electricity. For Hydrogen this doesn't exist. 5) The chairman of JCB wrote to all his employees before the Brexit referendum to say how he was absolutely convinced it would be a brilliant success and would lead to great prosperity for Britain. So probably not the best people to take strategy advice from. In Europe at least, battery powered trains and commercial vehicles have been in use for decades simply because they were the best solution for certain use cases, before anyone thought about the climate or subsidies related to it. Hydrogen only came along once subsidies did. In every single case I am aware in my country Hydrogen vehicles were only purchased because politicians insisted that Hydrogen MUST be used, and these projects have pretty much all been disastrous. Recent in my city a number of diesel trains were replaced with battery and hydrogen. The Hydrogen trains lasted two weeks before they gave up and went back to Diesel. The battery ones are running perfectly.

jimnotgym 2y ago
> 5) The chairman of JCB wrote to all his employees before the Brexit referendum to say how he was absolutely convinced it would be a brilliant success and would lead to great prosperity for Britain. So probably not the best people to take strategy advice from. Thank you, a template ad hominem. I'll cut that out and put it in my scrap book
porridgeraisin 2y ago
> 5) Ah yes, his opinion on a completely unrelated highly partisan thing being wrong in hindsight implies his opinion about the company he is the very chairman of isn't trustworthy. Maybe you should be the last person we all learn basic logic from :-)

numpad0 2y ago

Hydrogen vehicles are EVs too. They don't run H2 through a piston engine, it goes through a catalytic converter that generates electricity, aka Fuel Cell. Toyota FC stack costs ~$11k, about the same if not cheaper than a 100kWh worth of Li-ion cells.

looofooo0 2y ago
We are at 60$ on the cell Level.
VBprogrammer 2y ago
And the number of hydrogen powered vehicles sold year on year is currently decreasing. As are the number of places to fill them up in the UK at least.
- jimnotgym 2y ago
  Yes, because government subsidies switched to electric cars.
- numpad0 2y ago
  Because only Toyota makes them and mostly for publicity, yes. But my points are 1) hydrogen cars are pure EVs too, just not lithium, and 2) hydrogen primary battery thing isn't that expensive, or finicky for that matter. I'm not like a hydrogen believer, I just loathe incorrect technical understandings on the Internet, like any techy person would.
jimnotgym 2y ago
JCBs engines are piston engines as some other commentators have mentioned