6 ms·

If someone was building "Arc but for Firefox" I'd gladly pay for that. Firefox is, because of its position in the market, incapable of doing anything broadly in

If someone was building "Arc but for Firefox" I'd gladly pay for that. Firefox is, because of its position in the market, incapable of doing anything broadly interesting that's not "Be as Chrome-like as possible." They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. We'll only ever just get marginally better privacy settings or whatever the next Pocket ends up being. Browsers are _user agents_. I want my user agent to serve me by being as frictionless as possible when I use it. I simply can't accept that what Chrome/Firefox/Edge/Safari/Opera have provided as the standard web browsing experience for the last two decades is a global maximum. We use the web in very different ways than we did a generation ago and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Take the gradients away from Chrome 1.0 and you could convince me a screenshot of it was their next version. If the browser is a tool, it's astounding that the tool has hardly evolved _at all_. I miss the days when Opera did all sorts of weird and wacky shit. Opera 9 was a magical time, and brought us things like tabs and per-tab private browsing and a proper download manager and real developer tools. Firefox should be that, but they're too scared to actually do anything that isn't going to be a totally safe business decision.

osener 2y ago
Zen browser is exactly this. It has a growing ecosystem of “Zen mods” and has a great Arc-like out-of-box experience. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
- eikenberry 2y ago
  Does Zen plan on taking payments at some point? Key part of the idea is paid development.
  - keerthiko 2y ago
    they have a ko-fi and a patreon, with about a 1000 "subscribers" across both at <unknown> amounts at the moment. it's not exactly enough to promise indefinite support, but tbh i don't really much reason to have that faith from products i've paid for but are closed-source either.
    - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
      The project's main owner said that the income from the project is enough for him to make it his main job after he finishes university.
- Semaphor 2y ago
  After a short time with it, I find it kinda funny. Back then, power users were up in arms about things like the omnibar, and chrome removing more and more parts of the actual URL. And here is a browser marketed at power users that goes beyond that, showing only a small fraction. There doesn’t even seem to be a Zen mod that restores a real usable URL bar. For me, I manipulate URLs every day, both for work and private usage. Zen disqualified itself for my type of power usage very quickly, giving me a feeling of being on a small mobile device instead of a desktop PC.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    There’s an option under Settings > Look and Feel for a full length URL bar.
    - cevn 2y ago
      Perfect.. the real hacks always in the comments!
    - Semaphor 2y ago
      I had checked there before, just checked again, and I still only see an option for a smallish bar with the two floating options. Where there exactly?
      - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
        Settings → Look and Feel → Multiple Toolbars or Collapsed Toolbar as shown in the screenshot[0]. [0]: https://i.ibb.co/BVmkmkLC/Screenshot-2025-03-15-at-12-34-26-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/BVmkmkLC/Screenshot-2025-03-15-at-12-34-26-...
        Semaphor 2y ago
        Thanks. Wow, that is very much not clear
  - curun1r 2y ago
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Totally agree. Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. All the emphasis has been on skin-deep UI refreshes, gimmicks, ways to monetize the user, and ways for developers to control the user’s experience. I used to be a big fan of OmniWeb back in its day because it pushed the envelope in adding utility and emphasized its role as a powerful tool that put the user in control. It included things like per-page user CSS years before userstyles became popular in Firefox and Chrome. It was paid however, and at least in that point in time there was little appetite for a paid browser, and so now it’s a hobby project that Omni Group devs occasionally tinker on and hasn’t been actively maintained in some time.
- jhoechtl 2y ago
  > . Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. I agree. In the same time firefox' bookmarks are still better than what chrome or edge offer.
- unavoidable 2y ago
  100%. I would say, even on the UI/UX side - Microsoft(!) has done a way better job on Edge (even though it's Chromium), with lots of new features on tab grouping, split screen browsing, note taking, syncing, and app integrations. Love it or hate it, at least they are doing some new features.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  > skin-deep UI refresh Colorways anyone? How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I would pay for an exploer-like sidebar with folders and containers as the top-level folders. Almost have that now with "tree tabs" extension and containers, but the interface is kludgy. This plus a privacy guarantee would be worth paying for.
  - sudahtigabulan 2y ago
    > How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I use this to bring the normal tabs back: https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix
valunord 2y ago
I would rather see Orion on Firefox.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  What would that entail?
rewgs 2y ago
“Arc but for Firefox” is called Zen and it’s been my daily driver for months. Fantastic browser.
Izkata 2y ago
> They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. > and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Firefox 36 and 3.6 were pre-Quantum/Electrolysis. In those days, the XUL addons had an insane amount of control and could do so many things simply not possible nowadays, that if you took advantage of made a browser that looks nothing like modern Firefox.
emaro 2y ago
TBF, I like the browser doesn't change that much. I install it for / recommend it to friends/family/etc and big changes would only increase the support I have to do. I think forks are much better suited to try out new concepts, which eventually might end up in the browser (I enabled the vertical tabs in 136 and I love them).
hyperbrainer 2y ago
isn't Zen exactly that? Arc, but firefox
evo_9 2y ago
That’s exactly what Zen Browser is - Arc but off a fork of FF. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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osener 2y ago

Zen browser is exactly this. It has a growing ecosystem of “Zen mods” and has a great Arc-like out-of-box experience. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/

eikenberry 2y ago
Does Zen plan on taking payments at some point? Key part of the idea is paid development.
- keerthiko 2y ago
  they have a ko-fi and a patreon, with about a 1000 "subscribers" across both at <unknown> amounts at the moment. it's not exactly enough to promise indefinite support, but tbh i don't really much reason to have that faith from products i've paid for but are closed-source either.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    The project's main owner said that the income from the project is enough for him to make it his main job after he finishes university.
Semaphor 2y ago
After a short time with it, I find it kinda funny. Back then, power users were up in arms about things like the omnibar, and chrome removing more and more parts of the actual URL. And here is a browser marketed at power users that goes beyond that, showing only a small fraction. There doesn’t even seem to be a Zen mod that restores a real usable URL bar. For me, I manipulate URLs every day, both for work and private usage. Zen disqualified itself for my type of power usage very quickly, giving me a feeling of being on a small mobile device instead of a desktop PC.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  There’s an option under Settings > Look and Feel for a full length URL bar.
  - cevn 2y ago
    Perfect.. the real hacks always in the comments!
  - Semaphor 2y ago
    I had checked there before, just checked again, and I still only see an option for a smallish bar with the two floating options. Where there exactly?
    - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      Settings → Look and Feel → Multiple Toolbars or Collapsed Toolbar as shown in the screenshot[0]. [0]: https://i.ibb.co/BVmkmkLC/Screenshot-2025-03-15-at-12-34-26-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/BVmkmkLC/Screenshot-2025-03-15-at-12-34-26-...
      - Semaphor 2y ago
        Thanks. Wow, that is very much not clear
- curun1r 2y ago

cosmic_cheese 2y ago

Totally agree. Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. All the emphasis has been on skin-deep UI refreshes, gimmicks, ways to monetize the user, and ways for developers to control the user’s experience. I used to be a big fan of OmniWeb back in its day because it pushed the envelope in adding utility and emphasized its role as a powerful tool that put the user in control. It included things like per-page user CSS years before userstyles became popular in Firefox and Chrome. It was paid however, and at least in that point in time there was little appetite for a paid browser, and so now it’s a hobby project that Omni Group devs occasionally tinker on and hasn’t been actively maintained in some time.

jhoechtl 2y ago
> . Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. I agree. In the same time firefox' bookmarks are still better than what chrome or edge offer.
unavoidable 2y ago
100%. I would say, even on the UI/UX side - Microsoft(!) has done a way better job on Edge (even though it's Chromium), with lots of new features on tab grouping, split screen browsing, note taking, syncing, and app integrations. Love it or hate it, at least they are doing some new features.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
> skin-deep UI refresh Colorways anyone? How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I would pay for an exploer-like sidebar with folders and containers as the top-level folders. Almost have that now with "tree tabs" extension and containers, but the interface is kludgy. This plus a privacy guarantee would be worth paying for.
- sudahtigabulan 2y ago
  > How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I use this to bring the normal tabs back: https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix

valunord 2y ago

I would rather see Orion on Firefox.

Apocryphon 2y ago
What would that entail?

rewgs 2y ago

“Arc but for Firefox” is called Zen and it’s been my daily driver for months. Fantastic browser.

Izkata 2y ago

> They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. > and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Firefox 36 and 3.6 were pre-Quantum/Electrolysis. In those days, the XUL addons had an insane amount of control and could do so many things simply not possible nowadays, that if you took advantage of made a browser that looks nothing like modern Firefox.

emaro 2y ago

TBF, I like the browser doesn't change that much. I install it for / recommend it to friends/family/etc and big changes would only increase the support I have to do. I think forks are much better suited to try out new concepts, which eventually might end up in the browser (I enabled the vertical tabs in 136 and I love them).

hyperbrainer 2y ago

isn't Zen exactly that? Arc, but firefox

evo_9 2y ago

That’s exactly what Zen Browser is - Arc but off a fork of FF. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/

deleted 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago

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