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There is no left wing in Israel, you are painting a false narrative. It is a fascist state run by thugs (much like ours, which is probably why they are so eager

by dttze 2y ago

There is no left wing in Israel, you are painting a false narrative. It is a fascist state run by thugs (much like ours, which is probably why they are so eager to sell out Americans to Israel). Children were bombed. They knew the kids were there and they bombed them. Often happily doing it knowing they'd slaughter hundreds to get one supposed terrorist. They bulldozed bodies. They tiktoked the destruction of universities and hospitals. "Hamas's eagerness to put them in harm's way" is such a tired lie to cover up for the slaughter of innocent people by the Israeli terror state.

tome 2y ago
The 2021 elections ended with a government of 61 seats, including 7 seats for Labor (left), 6 seats for Meretz (fairly hard left), 4 seats for Ra'am (Islamist), so 25% from what would be considered a "left bloc" from a Western viewpoint. Then Yesh Atid and Blue and White had 17 and 8 respectively, both centrists, so just short of 50%. So there most certainly is a left (albeit small) and a substantial centre. Israel has a pluralistic political sphere. Israel's military operates according to the laws of war, which forbid targeting of civilians, but do not forbid civilian deaths. In a sense you're right though. If by "left" you mean "peace movement", that was on life support after the second intifada, and Oct 7th pulled the plug. There will be no substantial peace movement in Israel for a generation. Many of those slaughtered on Oct 7th were from the hard left/peace movement bloc. And to reiterate, yes, presenting things in those false terms makes you a bad guy.
- dttze 2y ago
  Seats mean nothing. If there is a plurality and any kind of left movement there, what opposition have they given to the right? AFAICT, Yair's biggest criticism was that the war was managed poorly by Bibi. 80% of Israeli jews support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. People are arrested for saying the oppressed have a right to defend themselves. You see videos of IDF troops calling for the death of all Arabs while they are on vacation. You see them doing crimes against humanity in Gaza war footage. That isn't a healthy society, it isn't a society with a leftist movement. It is a fascist bloodthirsty society, run by thugs like Bibi, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir. Supporting them means you either naive or that you lack any morals. Which makes your "bad guy" accusation meaningless.
  - tome 2y ago
    Yes, that's my point. Any plausible Israeli government, left, right or centre, would have conducted the war in roughly the same way, including the historical left governments of Ben Gurion, Meir, Rabin, Peres or Barak. Thus attempts to paint Israel as "right wing" due to its conduct of the war are fallacious. I'm just pointing out that painting falsehoods about Israel and its people (as you have continued to do in your most recent post) does indeed make you a bad guy. I don't expect you to agree with me!
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      Here's a fact about Israel. It is illegally annexing other countries' land right now with impunity. Is there any country that does this that isn't authoritarian and right wing?
      - tome 2y ago
        Israel claims the Golan Heights as part of its sovereign territory. It captured the Golan Heights during a defensive war in 1967, when it also captured the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula. It gave back the Sinai Peninsula for a peace agreement with Egypt in 1979. The capture of all that territory happened under a left-wing Labor government led by Levi Eshkol. The return of the Sinai happened under a right-wing government led by Menachem Begin, of the party that is the forerunner to Likud. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip to leave it in the hands of the Palestinian Authority in 2005. That happened under Ariel Sharon, a right wing prime minister (albeit in a centrist party, Kadima). The West Bank is still occupied because the Palestinians have not agreed to a peace deal with Israel, despite being offered one including that land most recently in 2008. Given what happened on Oct 7th, I don't think there will ever be such an offer again. Israel is currently occupying parts of Lebanon and Syria because Hezbollah fired 8,000 missiles at Israel from southern Lebanon during 2023 and 2024, and Hezbollah was supplied with those missiles through, with the consent of, Syria. Hezbollah's presence south of the Litani river was in contravention of UN Security Council Resolution 1701. So whether Israel captures or returns land has really nothing to do with whether its government is left or right wing. Israel is not authoritarian. It is a constitutional democracy.
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  > Israel's military operates according to the laws of war That’s a highly contested claim and I personally don’t believe it. You can prove it to be false without even looking at their actions in Gaza, just the torture of prisoners.
  - tome 2y ago
    It is not the policy of the Israeli military to torture prisoners. If your point is "The US behaved significantly worse than Israel in Abu Ghraib and I hate the US" then fair enough. I don't really have a response.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      It is actually the policy though. There are tons of documented stories of physical and sexual abuse in Israeli prisons, which hold many people without formal charges or a right to any kind of due process. That being said, lots of countries do this. Iran, for example.
      - tome 2y ago
        Israeli prisons are not run by the military. Holding people without formal charges is called "administrative detention" and also happens in Australia, Brazil, the UK and the US. Perhaps some abuses happen during that process. I wouldn't be surprised. But it's not the policy of Israel to abuse prisoners.
        aprilthird2021 2y ago
        Okay maybe I can say it's an extremely common occurrence the government doesn't sanction
        tome 2y ago
        Are you saying it is not Israeli government policy to abuse detainees?

by dttze 2y ago

tome 2y ago

The 2021 elections ended with a government of 61 seats, including 7 seats for Labor (left), 6 seats for Meretz (fairly hard left), 4 seats for Ra'am (Islamist), so 25% from what would be considered a "left bloc" from a Western viewpoint. Then Yesh Atid and Blue and White had 17 and 8 respectively, both centrists, so just short of 50%. So there most certainly is a left (albeit small) and a substantial centre. Israel has a pluralistic political sphere. Israel's military operates according to the laws of war, which forbid targeting of civilians, but do not forbid civilian deaths. In a sense you're right though. If by "left" you mean "peace movement", that was on life support after the second intifada, and Oct 7th pulled the plug. There will be no substantial peace movement in Israel for a generation. Many of those slaughtered on Oct 7th were from the hard left/peace movement bloc. And to reiterate, yes, presenting things in those false terms makes you a bad guy.

dttze 2y ago
Seats mean nothing. If there is a plurality and any kind of left movement there, what opposition have they given to the right? AFAICT, Yair's biggest criticism was that the war was managed poorly by Bibi. 80% of Israeli jews support the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. People are arrested for saying the oppressed have a right to defend themselves. You see videos of IDF troops calling for the death of all Arabs while they are on vacation. You see them doing crimes against humanity in Gaza war footage. That isn't a healthy society, it isn't a society with a leftist movement. It is a fascist bloodthirsty society, run by thugs like Bibi, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir. Supporting them means you either naive or that you lack any morals. Which makes your "bad guy" accusation meaningless.
- tome 2y ago
  Yes, that's my point. Any plausible Israeli government, left, right or centre, would have conducted the war in roughly the same way, including the historical left governments of Ben Gurion, Meir, Rabin, Peres or Barak. Thus attempts to paint Israel as "right wing" due to its conduct of the war are fallacious. I'm just pointing out that painting falsehoods about Israel and its people (as you have continued to do in your most recent post) does indeed make you a bad guy. I don't expect you to agree with me!
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    Here's a fact about Israel. It is illegally annexing other countries' land right now with impunity. Is there any country that does this that isn't authoritarian and right wing?
    - tome 2y ago
      Israel claims the Golan Heights as part of its sovereign territory. It captured the Golan Heights during a defensive war in 1967, when it also captured the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula. It gave back the Sinai Peninsula for a peace agreement with Egypt in 1979. The capture of all that territory happened under a left-wing Labor government led by Levi Eshkol. The return of the Sinai happened under a right-wing government led by Menachem Begin, of the party that is the forerunner to Likud. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip to leave it in the hands of the Palestinian Authority in 2005. That happened under Ariel Sharon, a right wing prime minister (albeit in a centrist party, Kadima). The West Bank is still occupied because the Palestinians have not agreed to a peace deal with Israel, despite being offered one including that land most recently in 2008. Given what happened on Oct 7th, I don't think there will ever be such an offer again. Israel is currently occupying parts of Lebanon and Syria because Hezbollah fired 8,000 missiles at Israel from southern Lebanon during 2023 and 2024, and Hezbollah was supplied with those missiles through, with the consent of, Syria. Hezbollah's presence south of the Litani river was in contravention of UN Security Council Resolution 1701. So whether Israel captures or returns land has really nothing to do with whether its government is left or right wing. Israel is not authoritarian. It is a constitutional democracy.
lazyasciiart 2y ago
> Israel's military operates according to the laws of war That’s a highly contested claim and I personally don’t believe it. You can prove it to be false without even looking at their actions in Gaza, just the torture of prisoners.
- tome 2y ago
  It is not the policy of the Israeli military to torture prisoners. If your point is "The US behaved significantly worse than Israel in Abu Ghraib and I hate the US" then fair enough. I don't really have a response.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    It is actually the policy though. There are tons of documented stories of physical and sexual abuse in Israeli prisons, which hold many people without formal charges or a right to any kind of due process. That being said, lots of countries do this. Iran, for example.
    - tome 2y ago
      Israeli prisons are not run by the military. Holding people without formal charges is called "administrative detention" and also happens in Australia, Brazil, the UK and the US. Perhaps some abuses happen during that process. I wouldn't be surprised. But it's not the policy of Israel to abuse prisoners.
      - aprilthird2021 2y ago
        Okay maybe I can say it's an extremely common occurrence the government doesn't sanction
        tome 2y ago
        Are you saying it is not Israeli government policy to abuse detainees?