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Friedmanite economists lauding the "productivity increases" of restaurants, meanwhile I have stopped eating anywhere except food trucks because mid-tier dining

Friedmanite economists lauding the "productivity increases" of restaurants, meanwhile I have stopped eating anywhere except food trucks because mid-tier dining is so bad now due to cost-cutting and loss of expertise. Yeah that tracks for Chicago School economics.

knowknow 2y ago
I don’t see how explaining productivity increases that didn’t have a previous known origin is “lauding”. What measurable phenomena do you think economists should focus their research on instead?
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Actually wait, that’s the whole issue. The things being superseded for productivity here aren’t measurable.
  - knowknow 2y ago
    Then how would you expect an economist to study it, go to restaurants and report their opinions? The comment i was replying to is essentially being snarky that economist are doing what they’re supposed to. Seeing and explaining economic trends.
    - wormlord 2y ago
      > Then how would you expect an economist to study it, go to restaurants and report their opinions? Unironically yes. There are dimensions other than raw profitability that determine the health of a sector. The work that chicago school economists do flattens everything onto just a financial axis, which is harmful in my opinion. What do I care about the "productivity" of the restaurant sector when all the food tastes like shit?
  - lukeschlather 2y ago
    No, they did measure them, they just didn't bother to value them. People are spending less time in the restaurants (<10 minutes.) People spending time in the restaurants are getting service (cleaning etc.) and use of the space/dishes. They aren't accounting for these services.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      I’m not sure I agree it’s entirely measurable. Often when something becomes more productive at the expense of something, that something is the comfort of being in the place or the friendliness of the staff or… and these things are intrinsically tough to measure. Not unmeasurable I suppose, but challenging by comparison.
- guy234 2y ago
  Every sience has the dual purpose of performing measurements and identifying what measurements can possibly be taken.
mediaman 2y ago
The paper does not cover "mid-tier dining." It covers fast food because that's where they had good data. Moreover, real restaurant spending in total is up, so while your personal dining decisions are interesting they don't appear to reflect the aggregate data. I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." He served in the Obama administration and advocated strong government intervention during the financial crisis. Do you think every UChicago economist is a Friedman disciple? Lastly, where did you infer the economists are "lauding" the productivity increases? It appears nowhere in the paper. They only defined productivity increases and explained why they occurred. Was there some other reason you wanted them to be lauding it, other than to justify your anger with people whose policy beliefs you don't seem to be familiar with?
- wormlord 2y ago
  > I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." The paper is from the Becker-Friedman Institute of Economics. It is literally the Chicago school. Do the authors need to call themselves disciples of Milton Friedman? > I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." He served in the Obama administration and advocated strong government intervention during the financial crisis. Do you think every UChicago economist is a Friedman disciple? Most orthodox economists at this point are. Sure maybe an ideologically pure free marketeer would have advocated against government intervention in 2008. But do you really think this guy is outside the neoliberal mainstream? > where did you infer the economists are "lauding" the productivity increases? Neoliberal economists believe that productivity is inherently good. I don't see anything in this paper about quality of life of employees or quality of service. Elevating one dimension above everything else implies a particularly importance of that dimension.
  - lynguist 2y ago
    It feels like under whatever hood one looks or whichever layer of paint one looks behind - when it’s a relatively new change in society, one always finds the root cause to be neoliberalism. Your comment reconfirms this especially pictorially with the last statement: productivity and it alone goes up and quality or service are not even part of the equation.
florbnit 2y ago
Food trucks are also more productive and since the study is a look at the market you’re part of the data that supports the industry increase in productive due to your switch from dine-in to food trucks.

knowknow 2y ago

I don’t see how explaining productivity increases that didn’t have a previous known origin is “lauding”. What measurable phenomena do you think economists should focus their research on instead?

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Actually wait, that’s the whole issue. The things being superseded for productivity here aren’t measurable.
- knowknow 2y ago
  Then how would you expect an economist to study it, go to restaurants and report their opinions? The comment i was replying to is essentially being snarky that economist are doing what they’re supposed to. Seeing and explaining economic trends.
  - wormlord 2y ago
    > Then how would you expect an economist to study it, go to restaurants and report their opinions? Unironically yes. There are dimensions other than raw profitability that determine the health of a sector. The work that chicago school economists do flattens everything onto just a financial axis, which is harmful in my opinion. What do I care about the "productivity" of the restaurant sector when all the food tastes like shit?
- lukeschlather 2y ago
  No, they did measure them, they just didn't bother to value them. People are spending less time in the restaurants (<10 minutes.) People spending time in the restaurants are getting service (cleaning etc.) and use of the space/dishes. They aren't accounting for these services.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    I’m not sure I agree it’s entirely measurable. Often when something becomes more productive at the expense of something, that something is the comfort of being in the place or the friendliness of the staff or… and these things are intrinsically tough to measure. Not unmeasurable I suppose, but challenging by comparison.
guy234 2y ago
Every sience has the dual purpose of performing measurements and identifying what measurements can possibly be taken.

mediaman 2y ago

The paper does not cover "mid-tier dining." It covers fast food because that's where they had good data. Moreover, real restaurant spending in total is up, so while your personal dining decisions are interesting they don't appear to reflect the aggregate data. I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." He served in the Obama administration and advocated strong government intervention during the financial crisis. Do you think every UChicago economist is a Friedman disciple? Lastly, where did you infer the economists are "lauding" the productivity increases? It appears nowhere in the paper. They only defined productivity increases and explained why they occurred. Was there some other reason you wanted them to be lauding it, other than to justify your anger with people whose policy beliefs you don't seem to be familiar with?

wormlord 2y ago
> I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." The paper is from the Becker-Friedman Institute of Economics. It is literally the Chicago school. Do the authors need to call themselves disciples of Milton Friedman? > I'm also not sure why you are calling Goolsbee a "Friedmanite." He served in the Obama administration and advocated strong government intervention during the financial crisis. Do you think every UChicago economist is a Friedman disciple? Most orthodox economists at this point are. Sure maybe an ideologically pure free marketeer would have advocated against government intervention in 2008. But do you really think this guy is outside the neoliberal mainstream? > where did you infer the economists are "lauding" the productivity increases? Neoliberal economists believe that productivity is inherently good. I don't see anything in this paper about quality of life of employees or quality of service. Elevating one dimension above everything else implies a particularly importance of that dimension.
- lynguist 2y ago
  It feels like under whatever hood one looks or whichever layer of paint one looks behind - when it’s a relatively new change in society, one always finds the root cause to be neoliberalism. Your comment reconfirms this especially pictorially with the last statement: productivity and it alone goes up and quality or service are not even part of the equation.

florbnit 2y ago

Food trucks are also more productive and since the study is a look at the market you’re part of the data that supports the industry increase in productive due to your switch from dine-in to food trucks.