8 ms·

Well that headline sums it up. After 10 years of dealing with it and wondering "how the f did we get to this point", it's satisfying to hear it called what it i

by aklemm 2y ago

Well that headline sums it up. After 10 years of dealing with it and wondering "how the f did we get to this point", it's satisfying to hear it called what it is. A small win in our family was in my son's final year of elementary school when he finally decided to try walking home 1.5 miles; that Spring was a delight for him. He was properly decompressed and had logged a minimum amount of physical activity for good sleep and all the rest. Pay for the buses! Build the greenways! Normalize walking! And stop worrying about abductions for the love of gawd!

mmmlinux 2y ago
"he decided" is probably one of the issues here. back in the day it would have been "this is what your doing now kid"
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Every generation grows and becomes better than the last*.
  - colecut 2y ago
    /me says "ok boomer" in gen-z
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      * Certain exclusions may apply
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  You're right. We would have been mocked "It's a mile and a half, I'm not picking you up when you have two perfectly good legs."
- xmprt 2y ago
  There's a difference when everyone is walking home (so you often walk home with a few friends who live nearby) vs being alone walking home.
- ainiriand 2y ago
  That kind of upbringing worked out really well for the boomers, we are in this mess because of that. Kids should have agency and independence, but also a feeling of safety, trust, and security. You cannot force a kid to work against their own safety instinct because of your own selfish comfort.
  - wendyshu 2y ago
    Wtf
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - technothrasher 2y ago
    > You cannot force a kid to work against their own safety instinct because of your own selfish comfort. I got this kind of reaction from my son for all kinds of things I made him do by himself that made him uncomfortable. Now that he's 18, he thanks me for it and wonders why all his friends are so entirely unable to do almost anything out in public without help.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    Their safety instinct is wrong. You have to work them through it
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - knowitnone 2y ago
    Providing a feeling of "safety, trust, and security" contradicts "Kids should have agency and independence." The only way they have safety is if you are with them 100% of the time which means 0 independence. I'm not worried about kids because they will natuarally avoid danger. I'm more worried about adults causing harm to kids (America).
  - lurking_swe 2y ago
    “but also a feeling of safety, trust, and security” i agree a little bit. But at what point does the “growing up” part happen? you know…when they turn 18, and have to get a real job (or go to university), doing things that are uncomfortable and maybe not fun? The process of growing up and becoming more mature is accomplished by challenging yourself and pushing boundaries, to grow as a person. i guess im saying, it depends. its not as black and white as you suggest. Is the fear irrational? Maybe therapy would help. Or a buddy to walk home with. But you need to _somehow_ help kids grow independent.
- aklemm 2y ago
  His choices were bus or walk (my experiences in the car lines are from days when kids needed to picked up for an occasion) before you jump to too many conclusions.
mmooss 2y ago
Everyone here should watch the Japanese TV series, Old Enough!. 2-4 year olds are sent out on their own to run errands, etc. Yes, really, 2-4 years old. And they succeed and are fine. https://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2011/02/old-enough.html https://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2011/02/old-enough.html
- Brookeden55 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - qball 2y ago
    The exact same people calling CPS on kids walking down the street claiming it's too dangerous are the people who advocate for turning communities into low-trust economic zones. The reason it's more dangerous now is because of them. They privatized profit (in this case, the warm fuzzies of addicts shooting up on playgrounds) and socialized risk. That is pollution. We should clean up that pollution, and ban those who created it from causing more.
- EA-3167 2y ago
  Ngl if the price for that is a Japanese level of social control, conformity, and their mad justice system... I'll take a car line.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > I'll take a car line Push this out thirty years. One set of kids was navigating the real world since they were 4. The other has been mollycoddled with overparenting and screen time. Which cohort do you think will be happier, better adjusted and better off? Then realise that it's not uncommon to see grade schoolers taking the subway to and from school in New York.
    - EA-3167 2y ago
      There's more to growing up and being "well adjusted" than walking around as a child, for example the freedom to explore who you are without the "nail that sticks up is hammered down" treatment. I also enjoy a certain amount of diversity (in every sense, from thought to people) that simply isn't tolerated in Japan.
marklubi 2y ago
When they started the pickup lines, I started just parking about half a mile away from the school. He knew exactly where I would be and we completely avoided the traffic and insanity of that nonsense. We live about a mile from his current school, so he rides his bike whenever the weather permits. He's always in a good mood when he gets home. I think it's funny that when he gets older, he'll be able to say that it was uphill both ways since we have a sizeable hill between home and school.
robertlagrant 2y ago
My kids having been cycling a mile each way to school since they were 5 years old. It's definitely doable, although we're fortunate enough that we aren't both working long days, and are well off enough that school is that close.
- jamesblonde 2y ago
  A mile is not close. Disclaimer: I am european. Grew up in ireland. Lots of cars, but unless you're in the countryside or its raining, it's generally walk/cycle to school. In Stockholm now, you are 'shamed' if you drive to school to drop your kids off. "Normal" parents have cargo bikes to bring their small kids to school if it's a long distance (like 500m or more).
  - devilbunny 2y ago
    You must have a lot of schools. I walked or biked about a mile each way to school starting in third grade (age 8-9), and the only reason I didn't do it a year earlier was that the two other kids who would accompany me were a year younger. I only got dropped off if it was raining (that can be quite severe and thunderstorms are common) or if I was so late that I couldn't make it. In the latter case, I walked home. Four years later, my school was miles away. No choice but dropoff lines (private school, no bus service). Had I been in the public school system, I would have needed to bus or be dropped off for junior high (that year and two after it, ~4 mi/6.5 km away traveling on and crossing multiple arterial roads without bike lanes or sidewalks for most of the way), but could have walked/ridden/driven myself to high school.
    - cogman10 2y ago
      Housing in Europe is very different from what it is in the US. A lot of it will look something like this [1]. In England, it's actually somewhat unusual to have any space between two homes. Semi and fully detached homes command a fairly high price. Roads were also not built for cars, so they tend to be much narrower than what you'd find in the US. All that means you'll find a much higher population density. You can even find a bunch of cobblestone roads without much effort. I'd also say that cities are FAR more walkable than they are in the US. It's almost the reverse of what it is here, it can be easier to walk to the store than drive simply because there's a billion little pathways that lead everywhere. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_houses_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_houses_in_the_United_...
bsder 2y ago
> After 10 years of dealing with it and wondering "how the f did we get to this point" While it's a lot of parental idiocy, please do consider that lack of enforcement action around bullying is also part of the answer.
- cogman10 2y ago
  I mean, walkability is a big problem for me. My kid would have to cross multiple busy streets in order to get to school (which is ~3 miles away). We don't have crossing guards either, the only ones we do have are literally at the school property.
andrepd 2y ago
And bicycles! A bike path takes half the width of a single car lane, there is absolutely no excuse not to have a network of bike paths almost everywhere there is a road. Literally just throw concrete barriers on one of the outermost lanes and you're most of the way there. The impact this has on the quality of life of everyone, but particularly those that can't/won't drive, is enormous.

by aklemm 2y ago

mmmlinux 2y ago

"he decided" is probably one of the issues here. back in the day it would have been "this is what your doing now kid"

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Every generation grows and becomes better than the last*.
- colecut 2y ago
  /me says "ok boomer" in gen-z
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    * Certain exclusions may apply
bongodongobob 2y ago
You're right. We would have been mocked "It's a mile and a half, I'm not picking you up when you have two perfectly good legs."
xmprt 2y ago
There's a difference when everyone is walking home (so you often walk home with a few friends who live nearby) vs being alone walking home.
ainiriand 2y ago
That kind of upbringing worked out really well for the boomers, we are in this mess because of that. Kids should have agency and independence, but also a feeling of safety, trust, and security. You cannot force a kid to work against their own safety instinct because of your own selfish comfort.
- wendyshu 2y ago
  Wtf
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- technothrasher 2y ago
  > You cannot force a kid to work against their own safety instinct because of your own selfish comfort. I got this kind of reaction from my son for all kinds of things I made him do by himself that made him uncomfortable. Now that he's 18, he thanks me for it and wonders why all his friends are so entirely unable to do almost anything out in public without help.
- nothercastle 2y ago
  Their safety instinct is wrong. You have to work them through it
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- knowitnone 2y ago
  Providing a feeling of "safety, trust, and security" contradicts "Kids should have agency and independence." The only way they have safety is if you are with them 100% of the time which means 0 independence. I'm not worried about kids because they will natuarally avoid danger. I'm more worried about adults causing harm to kids (America).
- lurking_swe 2y ago
  “but also a feeling of safety, trust, and security” i agree a little bit. But at what point does the “growing up” part happen? you know…when they turn 18, and have to get a real job (or go to university), doing things that are uncomfortable and maybe not fun? The process of growing up and becoming more mature is accomplished by challenging yourself and pushing boundaries, to grow as a person. i guess im saying, it depends. its not as black and white as you suggest. Is the fear irrational? Maybe therapy would help. Or a buddy to walk home with. But you need to _somehow_ help kids grow independent.
aklemm 2y ago
His choices were bus or walk (my experiences in the car lines are from days when kids needed to picked up for an occasion) before you jump to too many conclusions.

mmooss 2y ago

Everyone here should watch the Japanese TV series, Old Enough!. 2-4 year olds are sent out on their own to run errands, etc. Yes, really, 2-4 years old. And they succeed and are fine. https://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2011/02/old-enough.html https://www.ntv.co.jp/english/pc/2011/02/old-enough.html

Brookeden55 2y ago
[flagged]
- qball 2y ago
  The exact same people calling CPS on kids walking down the street claiming it's too dangerous are the people who advocate for turning communities into low-trust economic zones. The reason it's more dangerous now is because of them. They privatized profit (in this case, the warm fuzzies of addicts shooting up on playgrounds) and socialized risk. That is pollution. We should clean up that pollution, and ban those who created it from causing more.
EA-3167 2y ago
Ngl if the price for that is a Japanese level of social control, conformity, and their mad justice system... I'll take a car line.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > I'll take a car line Push this out thirty years. One set of kids was navigating the real world since they were 4. The other has been mollycoddled with overparenting and screen time. Which cohort do you think will be happier, better adjusted and better off? Then realise that it's not uncommon to see grade schoolers taking the subway to and from school in New York.
  - EA-3167 2y ago
    There's more to growing up and being "well adjusted" than walking around as a child, for example the freedom to explore who you are without the "nail that sticks up is hammered down" treatment. I also enjoy a certain amount of diversity (in every sense, from thought to people) that simply isn't tolerated in Japan.

marklubi 2y ago

When they started the pickup lines, I started just parking about half a mile away from the school. He knew exactly where I would be and we completely avoided the traffic and insanity of that nonsense. We live about a mile from his current school, so he rides his bike whenever the weather permits. He's always in a good mood when he gets home. I think it's funny that when he gets older, he'll be able to say that it was uphill both ways since we have a sizeable hill between home and school.

robertlagrant 2y ago

My kids having been cycling a mile each way to school since they were 5 years old. It's definitely doable, although we're fortunate enough that we aren't both working long days, and are well off enough that school is that close.

jamesblonde 2y ago
A mile is not close. Disclaimer: I am european. Grew up in ireland. Lots of cars, but unless you're in the countryside or its raining, it's generally walk/cycle to school. In Stockholm now, you are 'shamed' if you drive to school to drop your kids off. "Normal" parents have cargo bikes to bring their small kids to school if it's a long distance (like 500m or more).
- devilbunny 2y ago
  You must have a lot of schools. I walked or biked about a mile each way to school starting in third grade (age 8-9), and the only reason I didn't do it a year earlier was that the two other kids who would accompany me were a year younger. I only got dropped off if it was raining (that can be quite severe and thunderstorms are common) or if I was so late that I couldn't make it. In the latter case, I walked home. Four years later, my school was miles away. No choice but dropoff lines (private school, no bus service). Had I been in the public school system, I would have needed to bus or be dropped off for junior high (that year and two after it, ~4 mi/6.5 km away traveling on and crossing multiple arterial roads without bike lanes or sidewalks for most of the way), but could have walked/ridden/driven myself to high school.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    Housing in Europe is very different from what it is in the US. A lot of it will look something like this [1]. In England, it's actually somewhat unusual to have any space between two homes. Semi and fully detached homes command a fairly high price. Roads were also not built for cars, so they tend to be much narrower than what you'd find in the US. All that means you'll find a much higher population density. You can even find a bunch of cobblestone roads without much effort. I'd also say that cities are FAR more walkable than they are in the US. It's almost the reverse of what it is here, it can be easier to walk to the store than drive simply because there's a billion little pathways that lead everywhere. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_houses_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraced_houses_in_the_United_...

bsder 2y ago

> After 10 years of dealing with it and wondering "how the f did we get to this point" While it's a lot of parental idiocy, please do consider that lack of enforcement action around bullying is also part of the answer.

cogman10 2y ago
I mean, walkability is a big problem for me. My kid would have to cross multiple busy streets in order to get to school (which is ~3 miles away). We don't have crossing guards either, the only ones we do have are literally at the school property.

andrepd 2y ago

And bicycles! A bike path takes half the width of a single car lane, there is absolutely no excuse not to have a network of bike paths almost everywhere there is a road. Literally just throw concrete barriers on one of the outermost lanes and you're most of the way there. The impact this has on the quality of life of everyone, but particularly those that can't/won't drive, is enormous.