6 ms·

Because people are allergic to hybrids and I don't know why "Electric is short range, fuel is expensive, guess I have to pick one" The ideal drivetrain was in

Because people are allergic to hybrids and I don't know why "Electric is short range, fuel is expensive, guess I have to pick one" The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it!

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mschuster91 2y ago
> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! The problem is hybrid drivetrains are complex. You don't save anything on the complexity of a combustion engine and exhaust train (over 1000 individual parts that have to be machined at extremely low tolerances), but add a more complex transmission (it needs to be able to work with two distinct inputs) and an electric drivetrain on top of that. It is worth it in terms of energy efficiency and acceleration stats since even a small electric motor can supply a lot of torque at low speeds until the high-horsepower combustion engine catches up (virtually all modern cars have a turbocharger that needs time to spin up), but it's technically challenging to actually build into a modern car design - unlike 90s cars with ample space available to stuff components in, in a modern car every cubic centimeter is accounted for due to crash resistance.
- jshier 2y ago
  As a simple driver of cars, I've never understood why no one has mass produced an EV with a built-in generator. That would avoid the complexity of the hybrid drive train, allow easy plugin and short range electric-only travel, and could even be offered as an optional attachment. So what am I missing? Is the efficiency gained by the generator offset by losses through the EV system?
  - torginus 2y ago
    Most BYD PHEVs work like that - with the additional option of connecting the engine directly to the wheels via a clutch at highway speeds. I think Honda has a similar system.
  - wahern 2y ago
    This was the GM Volt, predecessor to the Bolt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt GM ceased production in 2019. The answer to your question can probably be found there, but IIRC [from GM's perspective] the consumer market preferred ICE + battery over electric + generator, especially after the all-electric options came to market and siphoned demand from the latter.
  - BerislavLopac 2y ago
    BMW i3 and Chevrolet Volt both had that option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender And of course, there are plug-in hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
  - busthrowaway23 2y ago
    [dead]
  - jfengel 2y ago
    It just turns out not to be worth it. The generator is a lot of weight to add, and a whole bunch of new parts to maintain. It's a lot easier to add enough batteries to match the range of an ICE car. Range anxiety is largely manufactured at this point. The cars know how far they can go and where the chargers are. A gasoline powered generator would be a huge extra cost with no real upside other than averting a non-problem.
  - 00N8 2y ago
    Edison Motors is working on a system like this. They're looking to sell kits for retrofitting it onto pickup trucks, & a larger scale semi truck cab version for use with logging trucks. It looks great in their videos, although I'm not sure if they're selling to the public yet - probably a ways to go before it's really mass produced.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    That is called a series hybrid and the reason they're not popular is that the power split device in common hybrids is simply better. The power split device isn't an ordinary transmission, it's a set of planetary gears with a fixed gear ratio between three shafts. One goes to the wheels, the other two to the engine and the electric motor respectively. The ratio of the engine speed to the wheel speed is then set by the speed of the electric motor connected to the third shaft, which gives you a CVT with no belts, clutches, torque converters or even synchros. The transmission is "more complicated" only in the sense that it contains electric motors. In every other respect it's simpler, more efficient and more reliable than an ordinary transmission. Meanwhile those electric motors mean you don't need a starter motor or an alternator because the engine can be started by the electric motor through the transmission and an electric motor is a generator when operated in reverse. A series hybrid still requires you to have a gas engine with all that entails, but now the gas engine needs its own dedicated electric generator/motor and you can't deliver power from the gas engine directly to the wheels, so the traction motors have to be bigger in order to supply 100% of the torque used in acceleration instead of the gas engine and electric motors both contributing. That makes series hybrids heavier, slower and more expensive, so they're basically useless. Probably the main advantage would be that you could offer the generator as an option on what would otherwise be a full electric vehicle and then only people who need the extra range would pay for it.
    - MostlyStable 2y ago
      Wouldn't an additional advantage of series hybrids be that the engine can be tuned to operate solely in it's most efficient RPM band, since it just charging the battery and doesn't need to deal with changing speeds? This can (according to some very cursory googling), result in efficiency gains of 20-30% relative to the least efficient RPMs. This should at least partially offset some of the size and weight considerations, since you don't need to size the engine for it's energy output in less efficient speeds. This seems like it would be most important in stop-and-go conditions where the engine is spending considerable time at less efficient speeds, such as in a bus.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  - loeg 2y ago
    You're talking about PHEVs, basically. Ramcharger is an example of one where the ICE engine only charges the battery; it's not connected to the drivetrain.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    The BMW i3 had this as an option; I don’t think it was a particularly popular option.
  - frollogaston 2y ago
    I know people have already said that PHEVs do this, but the other comments made it seem more niche than it really is... About 35% of EVs are like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#/media/File:Ratio_BEV_to_PHEV_global_annual_sales_since_2011.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#/media/File:Rat...
- xnx 2y ago
  Some hybrid drivetrains have fewer moving parts than a traditional ICE and are more reliable.
  - wahern 2y ago
    That undersells it. The data on hybrid drivetrains is pretty clear--it's definitely more reliable. Even mechanics will tell you that; certainly mine did, and he's not a masochist. Start+stop is hell on mechanical drivetrains. It's a no-brainer when purchasing a new car except that there's still a premium for hybrid, so the RoI might not be there given baseline reliability and depending on your preferences. Though the premium gap is closing, at least for non-plugin hybrids. Plugin hybrids are the new premium option in model lineups, so traditional hybrids are moving down market.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      My plugin hybrid (I just bought it 2 weeks ago) is on track to save me $200/month over the others similar vehicle it replaced (minivan with the same engine, but 10 years difference in years, so lots of other differences).
    - Tade0 2y ago
      My ROI is in how I can slam in reverse when I'm rolling forward or floor it whenever without concern for the drivetrain.
      - hy4000days 2y ago
        [dead]
  - vardump 2y ago
    Sounds counterintuitive. Any references?
    - floxy 2y ago
      https://www.rav4world.com/threads/how-the-ecvt-operates-with-very-detailed-information.314928/ https://www.rav4world.com/threads/how-the-ecvt-operates-with...
- loeg 2y ago
  > virtually all modern cars have a turbocharger This is not really true in the US, but maybe moreso in Europe, where engine displacement is penalized? > that needs time to spin up Porsche's latest 911 does something very cute here ("T-Hybrid"): they have a small electric motor in the turbo. They use the high-voltage hybrid battery to rapidly spin up the turbo on demand to significantly reduce turbo lag (one of the major drawbacks of a turbo engine). Then, at lower load, they can also regen the battery using the exhaust gases and that same motor.
bell-cot 2y ago
Here in SE Michigan, one local transit authority ditched its new hybrid busses and returned to diesel ~15 years ago - because the TCO for the hybrid busses was so much higher that fixing the hole in their budget proved impossible.
- a1o 2y ago
  What is TCO?
  - bigthymer 2y ago
    Total Cost of Ownership
  - astura 2y ago
    Total Cost of Ownership. It includes fuel & upkeep costs.
- sagarm 2y ago
  What drove the TCO so high that ditching already paid for hybrid busses made sense?
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    Sticker price on a hybrid bus was a few $100K higher than on a conventional, the actual mileage wasn't all that much better, and the maintenance was considerably more expensive. My source didn't mention reliability - but it's a big enough system that they'd track that as cost, too. ("ditching already paid for" - probably not the case. Vs. leasing, or selling the hybrids on, or something.)
busthrowaway23 2y ago
(At least in King County Metro) their newer diesel-electric buses are series hybrids that use electric motors for traction, and diesel generators to power a small battery. The drivetrain seems smart but maybe other agencies use it less? You can look up the bus model online - New Flyer XDE class
Tade0 2y ago
I've ridden both hybrid and electric buses and I prefer the latter, as those huge engines still produce a lot of vibration. I drive a Toyota hybrid and while it's a step up from a purely combustion propelled car, I still have to do oil changes and its fumes still smell bad when it's running rich for whatever reason.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
The drivetrain was actually invented several decades before that. It wasn't until around 20 years ago that the batteries got to the point to make it practical to use. They're also made by more than Toyota and Honda. The American automakers have been offering vehicles with a similar hybrid powertrain for around two decades and the German automakers for only a little less than that. But they're generally not a separate model like the Prius is, so the only exterior difference is a hybrid badge on what is otherwise visually identical to the non-hybrid car/truck of the same model.
- BigGreenJorts 2y ago
  Not disagreeing with anything you're saying, just adding as a note, that as of a few years ago, Toyota's entire line-up of cars are hybrid vehicles.
tirant 2y ago
I’ve been riding electric buses for almost 10 years, and no hybrid comes close to them. The experience as a passenger or as a citizen living next to a bus stop is far way superior: smooth, silent, non-smelly, no hot motor heating the back of the bus in summer… I hate riding any diesel bus after having got used to electric ones.
- johnofthesea 2y ago
  Same for me with boats in Oslo (but less than 10 years).
cheema33 2y ago
> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! I bought and drove a 2005 Prius for about 10 years. Loved it. But I would never buy another hybrid. My family now owns 3 EVs. Hybrids are better than pure ICE vehicles. But EVs are much much better than both of them. I could tell you about all the benefits of EVs, but until you own one, it may not sink in. Hybrids are good for some people. Apartment dwellers without a place to charge an EV.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Hybrids are better for road trips in my experience. We have an EV and a hybrid, and nearly always choose the hybrid for road trips, because the EV needs to stop 2x as often, for 3-4x as long.
happosai 2y ago
Nothing ideal in a drivetrain that requires climate change accelerating fossil fuels to work.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mschuster91 2y ago

> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! The problem is hybrid drivetrains are complex. You don't save anything on the complexity of a combustion engine and exhaust train (over 1000 individual parts that have to be machined at extremely low tolerances), but add a more complex transmission (it needs to be able to work with two distinct inputs) and an electric drivetrain on top of that. It is worth it in terms of energy efficiency and acceleration stats since even a small electric motor can supply a lot of torque at low speeds until the high-horsepower combustion engine catches up (virtually all modern cars have a turbocharger that needs time to spin up), but it's technically challenging to actually build into a modern car design - unlike 90s cars with ample space available to stuff components in, in a modern car every cubic centimeter is accounted for due to crash resistance.

jshier 2y ago
As a simple driver of cars, I've never understood why no one has mass produced an EV with a built-in generator. That would avoid the complexity of the hybrid drive train, allow easy plugin and short range electric-only travel, and could even be offered as an optional attachment. So what am I missing? Is the efficiency gained by the generator offset by losses through the EV system?
- torginus 2y ago
  Most BYD PHEVs work like that - with the additional option of connecting the engine directly to the wheels via a clutch at highway speeds. I think Honda has a similar system.
- wahern 2y ago
  This was the GM Volt, predecessor to the Bolt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt GM ceased production in 2019. The answer to your question can probably be found there, but IIRC [from GM's perspective] the consumer market preferred ICE + battery over electric + generator, especially after the all-electric options came to market and siphoned demand from the latter.
- BerislavLopac 2y ago
  BMW i3 and Chevrolet Volt both had that option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender And of course, there are plug-in hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
- busthrowaway23 2y ago
  [dead]
- jfengel 2y ago
  It just turns out not to be worth it. The generator is a lot of weight to add, and a whole bunch of new parts to maintain. It's a lot easier to add enough batteries to match the range of an ICE car. Range anxiety is largely manufactured at this point. The cars know how far they can go and where the chargers are. A gasoline powered generator would be a huge extra cost with no real upside other than averting a non-problem.
- 00N8 2y ago
  Edison Motors is working on a system like this. They're looking to sell kits for retrofitting it onto pickup trucks, & a larger scale semi truck cab version for use with logging trucks. It looks great in their videos, although I'm not sure if they're selling to the public yet - probably a ways to go before it's really mass produced.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  That is called a series hybrid and the reason they're not popular is that the power split device in common hybrids is simply better. The power split device isn't an ordinary transmission, it's a set of planetary gears with a fixed gear ratio between three shafts. One goes to the wheels, the other two to the engine and the electric motor respectively. The ratio of the engine speed to the wheel speed is then set by the speed of the electric motor connected to the third shaft, which gives you a CVT with no belts, clutches, torque converters or even synchros. The transmission is "more complicated" only in the sense that it contains electric motors. In every other respect it's simpler, more efficient and more reliable than an ordinary transmission. Meanwhile those electric motors mean you don't need a starter motor or an alternator because the engine can be started by the electric motor through the transmission and an electric motor is a generator when operated in reverse. A series hybrid still requires you to have a gas engine with all that entails, but now the gas engine needs its own dedicated electric generator/motor and you can't deliver power from the gas engine directly to the wheels, so the traction motors have to be bigger in order to supply 100% of the torque used in acceleration instead of the gas engine and electric motors both contributing. That makes series hybrids heavier, slower and more expensive, so they're basically useless. Probably the main advantage would be that you could offer the generator as an option on what would otherwise be a full electric vehicle and then only people who need the extra range would pay for it.
  - MostlyStable 2y ago
    Wouldn't an additional advantage of series hybrids be that the engine can be tuned to operate solely in it's most efficient RPM band, since it just charging the battery and doesn't need to deal with changing speeds? This can (according to some very cursory googling), result in efficiency gains of 20-30% relative to the least efficient RPMs. This should at least partially offset some of the size and weight considerations, since you don't need to size the engine for it's energy output in less efficient speeds. This seems like it would be most important in stop-and-go conditions where the engine is spending considerable time at less efficient speeds, such as in a bus.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
- loeg 2y ago
  You're talking about PHEVs, basically. Ramcharger is an example of one where the ICE engine only charges the battery; it's not connected to the drivetrain.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  The BMW i3 had this as an option; I don’t think it was a particularly popular option.
- frollogaston 2y ago
  I know people have already said that PHEVs do this, but the other comments made it seem more niche than it really is... About 35% of EVs are like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#/media/File:Ratio_BEV_to_PHEV_global_annual_sales_since_2011.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#/media/File:Rat...
xnx 2y ago
Some hybrid drivetrains have fewer moving parts than a traditional ICE and are more reliable.
- wahern 2y ago
  That undersells it. The data on hybrid drivetrains is pretty clear--it's definitely more reliable. Even mechanics will tell you that; certainly mine did, and he's not a masochist. Start+stop is hell on mechanical drivetrains. It's a no-brainer when purchasing a new car except that there's still a premium for hybrid, so the RoI might not be there given baseline reliability and depending on your preferences. Though the premium gap is closing, at least for non-plugin hybrids. Plugin hybrids are the new premium option in model lineups, so traditional hybrids are moving down market.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    My plugin hybrid (I just bought it 2 weeks ago) is on track to save me $200/month over the others similar vehicle it replaced (minivan with the same engine, but 10 years difference in years, so lots of other differences).
  - Tade0 2y ago
    My ROI is in how I can slam in reverse when I'm rolling forward or floor it whenever without concern for the drivetrain.
    - hy4000days 2y ago
      [dead]
- vardump 2y ago
  Sounds counterintuitive. Any references?
  - floxy 2y ago
    https://www.rav4world.com/threads/how-the-ecvt-operates-with-very-detailed-information.314928/ https://www.rav4world.com/threads/how-the-ecvt-operates-with...
loeg 2y ago
> virtually all modern cars have a turbocharger This is not really true in the US, but maybe moreso in Europe, where engine displacement is penalized? > that needs time to spin up Porsche's latest 911 does something very cute here ("T-Hybrid"): they have a small electric motor in the turbo. They use the high-voltage hybrid battery to rapidly spin up the turbo on demand to significantly reduce turbo lag (one of the major drawbacks of a turbo engine). Then, at lower load, they can also regen the battery using the exhaust gases and that same motor.

bell-cot 2y ago

Here in SE Michigan, one local transit authority ditched its new hybrid busses and returned to diesel ~15 years ago - because the TCO for the hybrid busses was so much higher that fixing the hole in their budget proved impossible.

a1o 2y ago
What is TCO?
- bigthymer 2y ago
  Total Cost of Ownership
- astura 2y ago
  Total Cost of Ownership. It includes fuel & upkeep costs.
sagarm 2y ago
What drove the TCO so high that ditching already paid for hybrid busses made sense?
- bell-cot 2y ago
  Sticker price on a hybrid bus was a few $100K higher than on a conventional, the actual mileage wasn't all that much better, and the maintenance was considerably more expensive. My source didn't mention reliability - but it's a big enough system that they'd track that as cost, too. ("ditching already paid for" - probably not the case. Vs. leasing, or selling the hybrids on, or something.)

busthrowaway23 2y ago

(At least in King County Metro) their newer diesel-electric buses are series hybrids that use electric motors for traction, and diesel generators to power a small battery. The drivetrain seems smart but maybe other agencies use it less? You can look up the bus model online - New Flyer XDE class

Tade0 2y ago

I've ridden both hybrid and electric buses and I prefer the latter, as those huge engines still produce a lot of vibration. I drive a Toyota hybrid and while it's a step up from a purely combustion propelled car, I still have to do oil changes and its fumes still smell bad when it's running rich for whatever reason.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

The drivetrain was actually invented several decades before that. It wasn't until around 20 years ago that the batteries got to the point to make it practical to use. They're also made by more than Toyota and Honda. The American automakers have been offering vehicles with a similar hybrid powertrain for around two decades and the German automakers for only a little less than that. But they're generally not a separate model like the Prius is, so the only exterior difference is a hybrid badge on what is otherwise visually identical to the non-hybrid car/truck of the same model.

BigGreenJorts 2y ago
Not disagreeing with anything you're saying, just adding as a note, that as of a few years ago, Toyota's entire line-up of cars are hybrid vehicles.

tirant 2y ago

I’ve been riding electric buses for almost 10 years, and no hybrid comes close to them. The experience as a passenger or as a citizen living next to a bus stop is far way superior: smooth, silent, non-smelly, no hot motor heating the back of the bus in summer… I hate riding any diesel bus after having got used to electric ones.

johnofthesea 2y ago
Same for me with boats in Oslo (but less than 10 years).

cheema33 2y ago

> The ideal drivetrain was invented over 20 years ago by Toyota and apparently nobody but me and Honda noticed it! I bought and drove a 2005 Prius for about 10 years. Loved it. But I would never buy another hybrid. My family now owns 3 EVs. Hybrids are better than pure ICE vehicles. But EVs are much much better than both of them. I could tell you about all the benefits of EVs, but until you own one, it may not sink in. Hybrids are good for some people. Apartment dwellers without a place to charge an EV.

TulliusCicero 2y ago
Hybrids are better for road trips in my experience. We have an EV and a hybrid, and nearly always choose the hybrid for road trips, because the EV needs to stop 2x as often, for 3-4x as long.

happosai 2y ago

Nothing ideal in a drivetrain that requires climate change accelerating fossil fuels to work.