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This depends a lot on local climate and topography. Seattle has kind of been a bust with them because the hills really reduce the amount of charge, and on top

This depends a lot on local climate and topography. Seattle has kind of been a bust with them because the hills really reduce the amount of charge, and on top of that the existing bus depots are already full, so switching to electric only would mean having to find and locate space for more bus depots, which is quite difficult.

bombcar 2y ago
Seattle also has (or had) trolley busses which fixed that problem. Everything is cost, it's all cost, not the ability to actually solve the problem.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  I wonder if trolley busses will make a great comeback now. Seems so obvious to just put the overhead lines near a few central bus hubs, so buses can recharge during the shift.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    The main issue with trolleybuses is that they are subject to a lot of NIMBYism, so you'll run into issues siting trolley hubs.
adrian_b 2y ago
Hills should never reduce the range, because the energy lost during climbing up is recovered when going downhill. This is one of the great advantages of electric vehicles with batteries, when properly designed. Electric buses with batteries are even more suitable for cities with hills than for cities without hills, because they provide greater energy savings over buses with ICEs. While I have never used buses with batteries, I have lived in cities with electric trolley buses. Even with the primitive technology of many decades ago, they were doing great in cities with hills, recovering most of the energy when going downhill, unlike the buses with ICEs, which had excessive fuel consumption because of the hills.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  Regenerative breaking is not perfectly efficient, so you may loose a significant portion of the additional energy needed. Better EV systems are what, 70-80% efficient on the breaking efficiency?
  - kittoes 2y ago
    Sure, but you lose 100% in the case of combustion...
    - thfuran 2y ago
      Okay, but gasoline is far more energy dense than batteries and a gas tank is a whole lot cheaper than a battery pack, so vehicles can have a gas tank big enough that that doesn't cause range problems. I don't know about buses, but you can buy a pickup with a 48 gallon tank. Even after assuming only about 1/3 efficiency, that's still equivalent to some 500 KWhr, which is several times more than any consumer EV I'm aware of.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      That's efficiency, not range. Suppose hilly terrain reduces range by a third for electric vehicles and half for diesel. The diesel bus just fills up twice as often. The electric bus needs a 50% bigger battery in order to finish the same route without stopping to charge, and then it becomes 70% because it has to lug the bigger battery up the hills. You can just... do that, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing you have to do, and it's not free.
      - adrian_b 2y ago
        It is impossible for a hilly terrain to reduce the range by a third for well-designed electric buses. The efficiency of regenerative braking increases with the power of the vehicle. The electric efficiency should be well over 90%, perhaps even 95%. The mechanical losses will lower the total efficiency to much smaller values, but even so, the total efficiency should be over 80%. A bus with an ICE will consume 5 times more extra energy for climbing the hill and it will also consume energy while going downhill. Values like a 50% greater battery are unrealistic, and a heavier battery adds much less to the consumption than by how much it is heavier, even when going up the hill (because most of the extra energy consumption is also recovered). In a certain city, it may happen that the bus routes are so long that batteries are not competitive with ICEs, at least for now. However, the presence of hills in any city can only make electric buses more advantageous, not less advantageous, due to much greater cost savings for fuel and maintenance. Buses with ICEs that are operated on hilly routes also need extra maintenance, besides increased fuel costs. Well-designed electric buses do not care whether they are operated in conditions requiring higher torque. Like I have said, I have lived in cities with hills and with electric trolley buses and there was no doubt that the trolley buses were superior to buses with ICEs exactly on the routes that were going up and down over hills.
potato3732842 2y ago
I think it depends more on the regulatory climate.

bombcar 2y ago

Seattle also has (or had) trolley busses which fixed that problem. Everything is cost, it's all cost, not the ability to actually solve the problem.

KeplerBoy 2y ago
I wonder if trolley busses will make a great comeback now. Seems so obvious to just put the overhead lines near a few central bus hubs, so buses can recharge during the shift.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  The main issue with trolleybuses is that they are subject to a lot of NIMBYism, so you'll run into issues siting trolley hubs.

adrian_b 2y ago

Hills should never reduce the range, because the energy lost during climbing up is recovered when going downhill. This is one of the great advantages of electric vehicles with batteries, when properly designed. Electric buses with batteries are even more suitable for cities with hills than for cities without hills, because they provide greater energy savings over buses with ICEs. While I have never used buses with batteries, I have lived in cities with electric trolley buses. Even with the primitive technology of many decades ago, they were doing great in cities with hills, recovering most of the energy when going downhill, unlike the buses with ICEs, which had excessive fuel consumption because of the hills.

datadrivenangel 2y ago
Regenerative breaking is not perfectly efficient, so you may loose a significant portion of the additional energy needed. Better EV systems are what, 70-80% efficient on the breaking efficiency?
- kittoes 2y ago
  Sure, but you lose 100% in the case of combustion...
  - thfuran 2y ago
    Okay, but gasoline is far more energy dense than batteries and a gas tank is a whole lot cheaper than a battery pack, so vehicles can have a gas tank big enough that that doesn't cause range problems. I don't know about buses, but you can buy a pickup with a 48 gallon tank. Even after assuming only about 1/3 efficiency, that's still equivalent to some 500 KWhr, which is several times more than any consumer EV I'm aware of.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    That's efficiency, not range. Suppose hilly terrain reduces range by a third for electric vehicles and half for diesel. The diesel bus just fills up twice as often. The electric bus needs a 50% bigger battery in order to finish the same route without stopping to charge, and then it becomes 70% because it has to lug the bigger battery up the hills. You can just... do that, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing you have to do, and it's not free.
    - adrian_b 2y ago
      It is impossible for a hilly terrain to reduce the range by a third for well-designed electric buses. The efficiency of regenerative braking increases with the power of the vehicle. The electric efficiency should be well over 90%, perhaps even 95%. The mechanical losses will lower the total efficiency to much smaller values, but even so, the total efficiency should be over 80%. A bus with an ICE will consume 5 times more extra energy for climbing the hill and it will also consume energy while going downhill. Values like a 50% greater battery are unrealistic, and a heavier battery adds much less to the consumption than by how much it is heavier, even when going up the hill (because most of the extra energy consumption is also recovered). In a certain city, it may happen that the bus routes are so long that batteries are not competitive with ICEs, at least for now. However, the presence of hills in any city can only make electric buses more advantageous, not less advantageous, due to much greater cost savings for fuel and maintenance. Buses with ICEs that are operated on hilly routes also need extra maintenance, besides increased fuel costs. Well-designed electric buses do not care whether they are operated in conditions requiring higher torque. Like I have said, I have lived in cities with hills and with electric trolley buses and there was no doubt that the trolley buses were superior to buses with ICEs exactly on the routes that were going up and down over hills.

potato3732842 2y ago

I think it depends more on the regulatory climate.