7 ms·

Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? It either performs its well defined functions when you bought it or they sold you a device that doesn’t input/out

by koolba 2y ago

Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? It either performs its well defined functions when you bought it or they sold you a device that doesn’t input/output sound. Updates for these types of things always fall into three categories. Either they’re gimping some unanticipated usage, they’re trying to insert ads, or they’re trying to gather more usage data.

basch 2y ago
Maybe a new codec? New streaming app support? New wireless protocol? CEC bugfix?
- 0x457 2y ago
  Yes, all of those are in the realm of possibilities, but has it ever been the norm? In my experience, products like this are only get updates when the company finds a way to extract more money: - add more ads - add more ads that pretend not to be ads - to remove functionality, so it won't cannibalize sales of more expensive product
  - jajuuka 2y ago
    I actually picked up a Samsung soundbar for my mom this past Christmas and there were quite a few negative reviews. Usually around the soundbar dropping its connection. However diving deeper on them seems to revealed that the issue was resolved with an update. It's not super smart though and needs a USB drive or phone app to update. So it has prevented this situation from happening. Considering the soundbar connects to a TV, console, phone, etc that are constantly releasing new versions and upgrades it makes sense to build in the function to something as simple as a soundbar to fix bugs and compatibility issues. Samsung doesn't have the greatest track record with updates though so obviously you don't want to jump the gun on these. Hopefully not a Galaxy Watch 4 situation where they need to be mailed to Samsung to be reset because they didn't think about this during the design phase.
  - hirako2000 2y ago
    More hardware is sold at cost or at a loss, compensated with ads. I don't like the model either, but that's how it is. If price isn't the only factor for some, it is for many who would otherwise not buy these things. Sellers picked up on that long ago. Other comments wish to see regulations, they can't outwit those marketing tricksters. For profit enterprise can, and will offer more alternatives with bigger stamps about privacy, ad-less certified and whatnot.
  - harrall 2y ago
    It’s the norm because people rather buy one single product that does it all. The alternative to an all-in-one sound bar is having regular 5.1 speakers, a nice receiver, a nice streaming box, and maybe a dumber TV and you will have absolutely the best setup but it’s a lot of putting pieces together, more space usage, and either money (if you want it right away) or a lot of waiting (if you want to get it used).
    - bradyd 2y ago
      Even dedicated receivers have software updates now. My Onkyo receiver had an update that added Dolby Atmos support, for example.
  - basch 2y ago
    I had a Yamaha that had a dtsx firmware addition upgrade after it shipped. Not sure if it wasnt ready at product ship, or some way to avoid licensing fees, but I dont know how they would track who upgraded as it wasnt network enabled. Sennheiser Max has a full computer and os running inside, they can upgrade it quite a bit. Biggest limitation on the device is HDMI 2.0 preventing 20gbps video passthrough of hdmi 2.1, however they should be able to add new audio codecs.
mschuster91 2y ago
> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? It either performs its well defined functions when you bought it or they sold you a device that doesn’t input/output sound. Unfortunately there are soooo f..ing many devices out there that don't follow the specs, no wonder given how long and complex alone the Bluetooth specifications are, and HDMI/HDCP (which a soundbar with ARC support needs...) is even worse, and don't even try to get me started on CEC because that is an even bigger pile of dung, or stuff like GPUs that run HDMI over DVI, MHL or USB-C in DP mode and god knows what else people expect to "magically work" with a 5 dollar adapter they got off of Alibaba. And no, "audit products to follow the specs" isn't a foolproof solution either. That means that everyone has to deal with everyone else's quirks and at least the most popular devices and their manufacturers have to supply firmware updates to react upon reports of quirks.
- bipson 2y ago
  While I agree with what you wrote > [...] GPUs that run HDMI over DVI [...] I thought HDMI and DVI use the same signalling (at least the 'digital part' of DVI, was it DVI-D?), just over a different connector? In my memory only the connectors competed for adoption, and Home Entertainment industry opted for HDMI and the PC-industry opted for DVI, while the signalling was not contested (besides DVI also being able to carry analog signalling with full spin-out, and HDMI carrying audio instead). My memory might not serve me well here though. I never thought HDMI would win :( but it makes sense I guess - Computers/their use changed :(
  - account42 2y ago
    Even without the relative size difference of the TV and PC industries, the HDMI connector is simply more compact than the DVI connector. Now Display Port vs HDMI is a more interesting competition and it would have been nice to have a clear DP victory here.
mikepurvis 2y ago
Sibling mentioned CEC fixes— this one is huge. CEC is lovely in concept but I ended up having to disable it completely across my setup as there was just way too many bits of weird behaviour with devices turning themselves on and then switching the TV or AVR to their input apropos of nothing. I feel like CEC tried way too hard to be magical instead of exposing enough control for the user to be able to block certain commands from problematic devices, or even just designate that device X will always be the boss in a particular setup.
- AceJohnny2 2y ago
  Absolutely this. The frustration when I turn on the Steam Deck and the Apple TV goes "Look at me. Look at me! I'm the output now"
  - mikepurvis 2y ago
    Yup, game consoles are ground zero for this. I hit the button on the PS5 controller only to have the receiver and TV power on, then the PS4 wakes up for some reason and then switches the AVR to its input. My Sony UHD player also seems to want to grab the input sometimes too, so maybe it's Sony that's the source of the problems haha. And again, it's all just so maddening because it feels like it would go away if I could be like "Hey, AVR should never send power-on messages to its input devices." Because then I would just power on the device I actually want to use, it would turn on the AVR and TV, and we'd be golden.
    - Forgeties79 2y ago
      I turn off CEC all the time and my tv refuses to acknowledge it if I ever unhook the device or HDMI. Always defaults back. Drives me crazy.
      - sunshowers 2y ago
        Highly recommend https://www.amazon.com/Lindy-HDMI-Adapter-Female-41232/dp/B00DL48KVI https://www.amazon.com/Lindy-HDMI-Adapter-Female-41232/dp/B0... -- I have a couple and it's solved this problem for me completely. I hate how unpredictable CEC is when things go wrong, on top of the ridiculous 3 device limit.
godelski 2y ago
> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? No matter the device, software rots. Not because the device changes, not because the software changes, but because the world does
- Ma8ee 2y ago
  And the obvious solution is to isolate the device from the world. Most of my stereo is isolated from “the world”, and some parts are close to 30 years old. Why does a soundbar need contact with the internet?
  - hirako2000 2y ago
    Modern soundbar are bugged Bluetooth enabled, also with ship with interfacing protocols, while legacy bluetooth/wifi drivers are ok, protocols just break
  - cle 2y ago
    Innocuous product features like streaming music, integration with Alexa/Google, connecting to TV and other speakers via wifi. Oh and collecting analytics data and selling to ad networks...
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    Just because you want to keep using old tech doesn't mean everyone else wants to.
    - Ma8ee 2y ago
      I prefer to choose myself when I buy new stuff, not let the corporations decide that for me when they decide to brick my old stuff.
  - godelski 2y ago
    That kinda defeats the point of having a device. Sure it works in some cases but we're talking about a soundbar here and that has to interact with other devices. It's whole purpose is to interact with other devices. Even if it doesn't need to contact the internet you're still going to want it to connect through cables. There's good reason to connect through bluetooth. But why should it contact over the internet? Well it sure is nice to be able to stream music from my NAS. There's utility in that. There's also utility in the parent company updating firmware to support new audio codecs. Or to support new algorithms. If my device is gaining more utility, that's a great thing! And of course, if it is connected wirelessly in any way (including bluetooth) I sure as hell would like updates with respect to security. Without this, the thing becomes e-waste. The environment moves. Time marches on. No thing can exist in isolation, no matter how hard you try. Again, software rots, not because the software changes, but because the world does. But that's not the problem here. The problem is abuse of that power. It isn't for the benefit of the customer. The problem is managers pushing to release before things are ready. The need for speed with no direction. To not even consider in the calculus of decision making the tremendous costs of when things go wrong. And how this lesson is never learned despite facing the problem time and time again. Issues like this now cost tons of engineering hours, tons of lawyer hours, and ultimately will cost tons in rebates and refunds. How many weeks of work is that equivalent to? Sure, it doesn't always result in catastrophic failure like this, sometimes it results in smaller failures, sometimes small enough they can be brushed off. But those are still costs that no one considers. That's the problem here.
palata 2y ago
> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? Because for free you only get the first 15 levels of volume. If you want to get to 25, you need to pay a subscription. I thought it was obvious... how does the seat heating work in your car? /s
- hirako2000 2y ago
  We've solved long ago mass manufacturing challenges. Today's problem is to sell.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Upvoted, but I'd pay a subscription to restrict a neighbor to the first 15 levels of volume out of 25 sometimes :)
devilbunny 2y ago
While I agree with your broad statement, I have a TCL (with built-in Roku) TV that has a bug in the sound processing. Either it becomes very quiet, drops out completely, or comes in and out with a lot of stuttering. Happens irregularly, typically though not always weeks apart (though on no schedule I've identified), solved with a reboot of the TV (which of course can't just be done by turning it off and back on - you have to select "restart system" from the menus). I owned it for at least six months before this occurred the first time. In theory, I could do a USB update of the firmware and hope that fixes it. In practice, they want my serial number to let me download it. No thanks, I'll pass, even though it's never been connected to WiFi or Ethernet and never will be. I'll just reset it every once in a while.
- update 2y ago
  > they want my serial number to let me download it. Out of curiosity, why is that a problem to you? Granted, it is strange; I went through the process for my TCL Roku who's wifi stopped working (still not fixed, and now a second, 3yo TCL Roku has bricked itself. nice!)
  - devilbunny 2y ago
    I don't care in principle, but it's not just that. You have to give your serial, you have to boot the TV to the update, which then sends a challenge-response to their servers that must be correctly answered (you use your computer for this, so the TV isn't actually on the internet) for the upgrade to proceed. I don't know what's in that data. And if I don't know what's in it, I'm not inclined to proceed; you might need my serial number to know if you're giving me the right software, but you don't need challenge/response for that. They sold me a cheap TV in hopes of collecting info on everything I watch, whether via Roku or just screen analysis. No thanks, and I have no interest in making it easier for them to break into my WiFi. I'm sure it would connect itself automatically to an open WiFi. It's a little paranoid, but they really are out to get us (or at least our data).
gm3dmo 2y ago
To install an AI update you didn't ask for, do not need and cannot turn off?
c5karl 2y ago
A lot of consumer products ship with half-baked software and/or firmware. I wish Polk would fix the bug(s) that cause my soundbar to freeze and need a reboot several times per week. But it's an old product that's not longer sold, so I'm probably SOL.

by koolba 2y ago

basch 2y ago

Maybe a new codec? New streaming app support? New wireless protocol? CEC bugfix?

0x457 2y ago
Yes, all of those are in the realm of possibilities, but has it ever been the norm? In my experience, products like this are only get updates when the company finds a way to extract more money: - add more ads - add more ads that pretend not to be ads - to remove functionality, so it won't cannibalize sales of more expensive product
- jajuuka 2y ago
  I actually picked up a Samsung soundbar for my mom this past Christmas and there were quite a few negative reviews. Usually around the soundbar dropping its connection. However diving deeper on them seems to revealed that the issue was resolved with an update. It's not super smart though and needs a USB drive or phone app to update. So it has prevented this situation from happening. Considering the soundbar connects to a TV, console, phone, etc that are constantly releasing new versions and upgrades it makes sense to build in the function to something as simple as a soundbar to fix bugs and compatibility issues. Samsung doesn't have the greatest track record with updates though so obviously you don't want to jump the gun on these. Hopefully not a Galaxy Watch 4 situation where they need to be mailed to Samsung to be reset because they didn't think about this during the design phase.
- hirako2000 2y ago
  More hardware is sold at cost or at a loss, compensated with ads. I don't like the model either, but that's how it is. If price isn't the only factor for some, it is for many who would otherwise not buy these things. Sellers picked up on that long ago. Other comments wish to see regulations, they can't outwit those marketing tricksters. For profit enterprise can, and will offer more alternatives with bigger stamps about privacy, ad-less certified and whatnot.
- harrall 2y ago
  It’s the norm because people rather buy one single product that does it all. The alternative to an all-in-one sound bar is having regular 5.1 speakers, a nice receiver, a nice streaming box, and maybe a dumber TV and you will have absolutely the best setup but it’s a lot of putting pieces together, more space usage, and either money (if you want it right away) or a lot of waiting (if you want to get it used).
  - bradyd 2y ago
    Even dedicated receivers have software updates now. My Onkyo receiver had an update that added Dolby Atmos support, for example.
- basch 2y ago
  I had a Yamaha that had a dtsx firmware addition upgrade after it shipped. Not sure if it wasnt ready at product ship, or some way to avoid licensing fees, but I dont know how they would track who upgraded as it wasnt network enabled. Sennheiser Max has a full computer and os running inside, they can upgrade it quite a bit. Biggest limitation on the device is HDMI 2.0 preventing 20gbps video passthrough of hdmi 2.1, however they should be able to add new audio codecs.

mschuster91 2y ago

> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? It either performs its well defined functions when you bought it or they sold you a device that doesn’t input/output sound. Unfortunately there are soooo f..ing many devices out there that don't follow the specs, no wonder given how long and complex alone the Bluetooth specifications are, and HDMI/HDCP (which a soundbar with ARC support needs...) is even worse, and don't even try to get me started on CEC because that is an even bigger pile of dung, or stuff like GPUs that run HDMI over DVI, MHL or USB-C in DP mode and god knows what else people expect to "magically work" with a 5 dollar adapter they got off of Alibaba. And no, "audit products to follow the specs" isn't a foolproof solution either. That means that everyone has to deal with everyone else's quirks and at least the most popular devices and their manufacturers have to supply firmware updates to react upon reports of quirks.

bipson 2y ago
While I agree with what you wrote > [...] GPUs that run HDMI over DVI [...] I thought HDMI and DVI use the same signalling (at least the 'digital part' of DVI, was it DVI-D?), just over a different connector? In my memory only the connectors competed for adoption, and Home Entertainment industry opted for HDMI and the PC-industry opted for DVI, while the signalling was not contested (besides DVI also being able to carry analog signalling with full spin-out, and HDMI carrying audio instead). My memory might not serve me well here though. I never thought HDMI would win :( but it makes sense I guess - Computers/their use changed :(
- account42 2y ago
  Even without the relative size difference of the TV and PC industries, the HDMI connector is simply more compact than the DVI connector. Now Display Port vs HDMI is a more interesting competition and it would have been nice to have a clear DP victory here.

mikepurvis 2y ago

Sibling mentioned CEC fixes— this one is huge. CEC is lovely in concept but I ended up having to disable it completely across my setup as there was just way too many bits of weird behaviour with devices turning themselves on and then switching the TV or AVR to their input apropos of nothing. I feel like CEC tried way too hard to be magical instead of exposing enough control for the user to be able to block certain commands from problematic devices, or even just designate that device X will always be the boss in a particular setup.

AceJohnny2 2y ago
Absolutely this. The frustration when I turn on the Steam Deck and the Apple TV goes "Look at me. Look at me! I'm the output now"
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  Yup, game consoles are ground zero for this. I hit the button on the PS5 controller only to have the receiver and TV power on, then the PS4 wakes up for some reason and then switches the AVR to its input. My Sony UHD player also seems to want to grab the input sometimes too, so maybe it's Sony that's the source of the problems haha. And again, it's all just so maddening because it feels like it would go away if I could be like "Hey, AVR should never send power-on messages to its input devices." Because then I would just power on the device I actually want to use, it would turn on the AVR and TV, and we'd be golden.
  - Forgeties79 2y ago
    I turn off CEC all the time and my tv refuses to acknowledge it if I ever unhook the device or HDMI. Always defaults back. Drives me crazy.
    - sunshowers 2y ago
      Highly recommend https://www.amazon.com/Lindy-HDMI-Adapter-Female-41232/dp/B00DL48KVI https://www.amazon.com/Lindy-HDMI-Adapter-Female-41232/dp/B0... -- I have a couple and it's solved this problem for me completely. I hate how unpredictable CEC is when things go wrong, on top of the ridiculous 3 device limit.

godelski 2y ago

> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? No matter the device, software rots. Not because the device changes, not because the software changes, but because the world does

Ma8ee 2y ago
And the obvious solution is to isolate the device from the world. Most of my stereo is isolated from “the world”, and some parts are close to 30 years old. Why does a soundbar need contact with the internet?
- hirako2000 2y ago
  Modern soundbar are bugged Bluetooth enabled, also with ship with interfacing protocols, while legacy bluetooth/wifi drivers are ok, protocols just break
- cle 2y ago
  Innocuous product features like streaming music, integration with Alexa/Google, connecting to TV and other speakers via wifi. Oh and collecting analytics data and selling to ad networks...
- saturn8601 2y ago
  Just because you want to keep using old tech doesn't mean everyone else wants to.
  - Ma8ee 2y ago
    I prefer to choose myself when I buy new stuff, not let the corporations decide that for me when they decide to brick my old stuff.
- godelski 2y ago
  That kinda defeats the point of having a device. Sure it works in some cases but we're talking about a soundbar here and that has to interact with other devices. It's whole purpose is to interact with other devices. Even if it doesn't need to contact the internet you're still going to want it to connect through cables. There's good reason to connect through bluetooth. But why should it contact over the internet? Well it sure is nice to be able to stream music from my NAS. There's utility in that. There's also utility in the parent company updating firmware to support new audio codecs. Or to support new algorithms. If my device is gaining more utility, that's a great thing! And of course, if it is connected wirelessly in any way (including bluetooth) I sure as hell would like updates with respect to security. Without this, the thing becomes e-waste. The environment moves. Time marches on. No thing can exist in isolation, no matter how hard you try. Again, software rots, not because the software changes, but because the world does. But that's not the problem here. The problem is abuse of that power. It isn't for the benefit of the customer. The problem is managers pushing to release before things are ready. The need for speed with no direction. To not even consider in the calculus of decision making the tremendous costs of when things go wrong. And how this lesson is never learned despite facing the problem time and time again. Issues like this now cost tons of engineering hours, tons of lawyer hours, and ultimately will cost tons in rebates and refunds. How many weeks of work is that equivalent to? Sure, it doesn't always result in catastrophic failure like this, sometimes it results in smaller failures, sometimes small enough they can be brushed off. But those are still costs that no one considers. That's the problem here.

palata 2y ago

> Why else would a soundbar need updates anyway? Because for free you only get the first 15 levels of volume. If you want to get to 25, you need to pay a subscription. I thought it was obvious... how does the seat heating work in your car? /s

hirako2000 2y ago
We've solved long ago mass manufacturing challenges. Today's problem is to sell.
nottorp 2y ago
Upvoted, but I'd pay a subscription to restrict a neighbor to the first 15 levels of volume out of 25 sometimes :)

devilbunny 2y ago

While I agree with your broad statement, I have a TCL (with built-in Roku) TV that has a bug in the sound processing. Either it becomes very quiet, drops out completely, or comes in and out with a lot of stuttering. Happens irregularly, typically though not always weeks apart (though on no schedule I've identified), solved with a reboot of the TV (which of course can't just be done by turning it off and back on - you have to select "restart system" from the menus). I owned it for at least six months before this occurred the first time. In theory, I could do a USB update of the firmware and hope that fixes it. In practice, they want my serial number to let me download it. No thanks, I'll pass, even though it's never been connected to WiFi or Ethernet and never will be. I'll just reset it every once in a while.

update 2y ago
> they want my serial number to let me download it. Out of curiosity, why is that a problem to you? Granted, it is strange; I went through the process for my TCL Roku who's wifi stopped working (still not fixed, and now a second, 3yo TCL Roku has bricked itself. nice!)
- devilbunny 2y ago
  I don't care in principle, but it's not just that. You have to give your serial, you have to boot the TV to the update, which then sends a challenge-response to their servers that must be correctly answered (you use your computer for this, so the TV isn't actually on the internet) for the upgrade to proceed. I don't know what's in that data. And if I don't know what's in it, I'm not inclined to proceed; you might need my serial number to know if you're giving me the right software, but you don't need challenge/response for that. They sold me a cheap TV in hopes of collecting info on everything I watch, whether via Roku or just screen analysis. No thanks, and I have no interest in making it easier for them to break into my WiFi. I'm sure it would connect itself automatically to an open WiFi. It's a little paranoid, but they really are out to get us (or at least our data).

gm3dmo 2y ago

To install an AI update you didn't ask for, do not need and cannot turn off?

c5karl 2y ago

A lot of consumer products ship with half-baked software and/or firmware. I wish Polk would fix the bug(s) that cause my soundbar to freeze and need a reboot several times per week. But it's an old product that's not longer sold, so I'm probably SOL.