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I don’t know that this idea would work for literally just Firefox, but I strongly believe that people would be willing to pay for a Firefox fork that has a lase

I don’t know that this idea would work for literally just Firefox, but I strongly believe that people would be willing to pay for a Firefox fork that has a laser focus on fit and finish and poweruser features. Think a “Firefox Pro” of sorts. Why do I think this? Three reasons: - It elevates the browser into a higher category of tool, where currently Firefox inhabits the same space as OS-bundled calculators and text editors, making it being paid more justifiable in peoples’ minds. - Firefox has long had issues with rough edges and papercuts, which I believe frustrates users more than Mozilla probably realizes. - Much of Firefox’s original claim to fame came from its highly flexible, power user friendly nature which was abandoned in favor of chasing mass appeal.

bastawhiz 2y ago
If someone was building "Arc but for Firefox" I'd gladly pay for that. Firefox is, because of its position in the market, incapable of doing anything broadly interesting that's not "Be as Chrome-like as possible." They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. We'll only ever just get marginally better privacy settings or whatever the next Pocket ends up being. Browsers are _user agents_. I want my user agent to serve me by being as frictionless as possible when I use it. I simply can't accept that what Chrome/Firefox/Edge/Safari/Opera have provided as the standard web browsing experience for the last two decades is a global maximum. We use the web in very different ways than we did a generation ago and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Take the gradients away from Chrome 1.0 and you could convince me a screenshot of it was their next version. If the browser is a tool, it's astounding that the tool has hardly evolved _at all_. I miss the days when Opera did all sorts of weird and wacky shit. Opera 9 was a magical time, and brought us things like tabs and per-tab private browsing and a proper download manager and real developer tools. Firefox should be that, but they're too scared to actually do anything that isn't going to be a totally safe business decision.
- osener 2y ago
  Zen browser is exactly this. It has a growing ecosystem of “Zen mods” and has a great Arc-like out-of-box experience. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    Does Zen plan on taking payments at some point? Key part of the idea is paid development.
    - keerthiko 2y ago
      they have a ko-fi and a patreon, with about a 1000 "subscribers" across both at <unknown> amounts at the moment. it's not exactly enough to promise indefinite support, but tbh i don't really much reason to have that faith from products i've paid for but are closed-source either.
      - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
        The project's main owner said that the income from the project is enough for him to make it his main job after he finishes university.
  - Semaphor 2y ago
    After a short time with it, I find it kinda funny. Back then, power users were up in arms about things like the omnibar, and chrome removing more and more parts of the actual URL. And here is a browser marketed at power users that goes beyond that, showing only a small fraction. There doesn’t even seem to be a Zen mod that restores a real usable URL bar. For me, I manipulate URLs every day, both for work and private usage. Zen disqualified itself for my type of power usage very quickly, giving me a feeling of being on a small mobile device instead of a desktop PC.
    - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      There’s an option under Settings > Look and Feel for a full length URL bar.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Totally agree. Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. All the emphasis has been on skin-deep UI refreshes, gimmicks, ways to monetize the user, and ways for developers to control the user’s experience. I used to be a big fan of OmniWeb back in its day because it pushed the envelope in adding utility and emphasized its role as a powerful tool that put the user in control. It included things like per-page user CSS years before userstyles became popular in Firefox and Chrome. It was paid however, and at least in that point in time there was little appetite for a paid browser, and so now it’s a hobby project that Omni Group devs occasionally tinker on and hasn’t been actively maintained in some time.
  - jhoechtl 2y ago
    > . Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. I agree. In the same time firefox' bookmarks are still better than what chrome or edge offer.
  - unavoidable 2y ago
    100%. I would say, even on the UI/UX side - Microsoft(!) has done a way better job on Edge (even though it's Chromium), with lots of new features on tab grouping, split screen browsing, note taking, syncing, and app integrations. Love it or hate it, at least they are doing some new features.
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    > skin-deep UI refresh Colorways anyone? How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I would pay for an exploer-like sidebar with folders and containers as the top-level folders. Almost have that now with "tree tabs" extension and containers, but the interface is kludgy. This plus a privacy guarantee would be worth paying for.
    - sudahtigabulan 2y ago
      > How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I use this to bring the normal tabs back: https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix
- valunord 2y ago
  I would rather see Orion on Firefox.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    What would that entail?
- rewgs 2y ago
  “Arc but for Firefox” is called Zen and it’s been my daily driver for months. Fantastic browser.
- Izkata 2y ago
  > They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. > and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Firefox 36 and 3.6 were pre-Quantum/Electrolysis. In those days, the XUL addons had an insane amount of control and could do so many things simply not possible nowadays, that if you took advantage of made a browser that looks nothing like modern Firefox.
- emaro 2y ago
  TBF, I like the browser doesn't change that much. I install it for / recommend it to friends/family/etc and big changes would only increase the support I have to do. I think forks are much better suited to try out new concepts, which eventually might end up in the browser (I enabled the vertical tabs in 136 and I love them).
- hyperbrainer 2y ago
  isn't Zen exactly that? Arc, but firefox
- evo_9 2y ago
  That’s exactly what Zen Browser is - Arc but off a fork of FF. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
0x457 2y ago
I think in todays world, when everything is a subscription, payment for a browser doesn't look so far-fetched.
- TylerE 2y ago
  Getting people to pay for something that has always been free is a tall ask. Most people are barely aware of what a browser is. They just think it’s part of the OS.
  - bmacho 2y ago
    People pay for youtube and random youtubers now. They are fine paying for things.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      Sure, for those things. However when it comes to web browsers, there’s been a looong history of failed attempts at selling commercial browsers. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the only people who’ve ever made any serious and sustained income from browsers have been Google; and even that’s been indirectly via upselling their other services.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        This is what people said about Search before Kagi. And, incidentally, those folks are also working on a paid browser that real people do buy. Times change. Subscriptions are normalized, and tech people are increasingly aware of the hazards of "free".
    - TylerE 2y ago
      Content is something that is traditionally paid.
tonyhart7 2y ago
then why not modzilla themselves offering their pro version
- lolinder 2y ago
  That is the question I ask myself every time this comes up, and the only answer I've been able to come up with is "because Google pays them not to".
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ForTheKidz 2y ago
Inevitably, I'd want any feature worth paying for to be freely accessible. Presumably I'm not just trying to support the devs but also fund other people accessing the same features that draw me to firefox in the first place.

bastawhiz 2y ago

If someone was building "Arc but for Firefox" I'd gladly pay for that. Firefox is, because of its position in the market, incapable of doing anything broadly interesting that's not "Be as Chrome-like as possible." They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. We'll only ever just get marginally better privacy settings or whatever the next Pocket ends up being. Browsers are _user agents_. I want my user agent to serve me by being as frictionless as possible when I use it. I simply can't accept that what Chrome/Firefox/Edge/Safari/Opera have provided as the standard web browsing experience for the last two decades is a global maximum. We use the web in very different ways than we did a generation ago and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Take the gradients away from Chrome 1.0 and you could convince me a screenshot of it was their next version. If the browser is a tool, it's astounding that the tool has hardly evolved _at all_. I miss the days when Opera did all sorts of weird and wacky shit. Opera 9 was a magical time, and brought us things like tabs and per-tab private browsing and a proper download manager and real developer tools. Firefox should be that, but they're too scared to actually do anything that isn't going to be a totally safe business decision.

osener 2y ago
Zen browser is exactly this. It has a growing ecosystem of “Zen mods” and has a great Arc-like out-of-box experience. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
- eikenberry 2y ago
  Does Zen plan on taking payments at some point? Key part of the idea is paid development.
  - keerthiko 2y ago
    they have a ko-fi and a patreon, with about a 1000 "subscribers" across both at <unknown> amounts at the moment. it's not exactly enough to promise indefinite support, but tbh i don't really much reason to have that faith from products i've paid for but are closed-source either.
    - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
      The project's main owner said that the income from the project is enough for him to make it his main job after he finishes university.
- Semaphor 2y ago
  After a short time with it, I find it kinda funny. Back then, power users were up in arms about things like the omnibar, and chrome removing more and more parts of the actual URL. And here is a browser marketed at power users that goes beyond that, showing only a small fraction. There doesn’t even seem to be a Zen mod that restores a real usable URL bar. For me, I manipulate URLs every day, both for work and private usage. Zen disqualified itself for my type of power usage very quickly, giving me a feeling of being on a small mobile device instead of a desktop PC.
  - cosmic_cheese 2y ago
    There’s an option under Settings > Look and Feel for a full length URL bar.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Totally agree. Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. All the emphasis has been on skin-deep UI refreshes, gimmicks, ways to monetize the user, and ways for developers to control the user’s experience. I used to be a big fan of OmniWeb back in its day because it pushed the envelope in adding utility and emphasized its role as a powerful tool that put the user in control. It included things like per-page user CSS years before userstyles became popular in Firefox and Chrome. It was paid however, and at least in that point in time there was little appetite for a paid browser, and so now it’s a hobby project that Omni Group devs occasionally tinker on and hasn’t been actively maintained in some time.
- jhoechtl 2y ago
  > . Even core features like bookmarks have barely improved in decades. I agree. In the same time firefox' bookmarks are still better than what chrome or edge offer.
- unavoidable 2y ago
  100%. I would say, even on the UI/UX side - Microsoft(!) has done a way better job on Edge (even though it's Chromium), with lots of new features on tab grouping, split screen browsing, note taking, syncing, and app integrations. Love it or hate it, at least they are doing some new features.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  > skin-deep UI refresh Colorways anyone? How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I would pay for an exploer-like sidebar with folders and containers as the top-level folders. Almost have that now with "tree tabs" extension and containers, but the interface is kludgy. This plus a privacy guarantee would be worth paying for.
  - sudahtigabulan 2y ago
    > How about tabs that now look like buttons for no conceivable purpose but fashion? I use this to bring the normal tabs back: https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix
valunord 2y ago
I would rather see Orion on Firefox.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  What would that entail?
rewgs 2y ago
“Arc but for Firefox” is called Zen and it’s been my daily driver for months. Fantastic browser.
Izkata 2y ago
> They sneak in features that are nice, but I simply don't think we'll ever see Mozilla put out something that does anything that really sets Firefox apart. > and yet Firefox 136 looks impressively similar to both Firefox 36 and Firefox 3.6. Firefox 36 and 3.6 were pre-Quantum/Electrolysis. In those days, the XUL addons had an insane amount of control and could do so many things simply not possible nowadays, that if you took advantage of made a browser that looks nothing like modern Firefox.
emaro 2y ago
TBF, I like the browser doesn't change that much. I install it for / recommend it to friends/family/etc and big changes would only increase the support I have to do. I think forks are much better suited to try out new concepts, which eventually might end up in the browser (I enabled the vertical tabs in 136 and I love them).
hyperbrainer 2y ago
isn't Zen exactly that? Arc, but firefox
evo_9 2y ago
That’s exactly what Zen Browser is - Arc but off a fork of FF. https://zen-browser.app/ https://zen-browser.app/
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

0x457 2y ago

I think in todays world, when everything is a subscription, payment for a browser doesn't look so far-fetched.

TylerE 2y ago
Getting people to pay for something that has always been free is a tall ask. Most people are barely aware of what a browser is. They just think it’s part of the OS.
- bmacho 2y ago
  People pay for youtube and random youtubers now. They are fine paying for things.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    Sure, for those things. However when it comes to web browsers, there’s been a looong history of failed attempts at selling commercial browsers. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the only people who’ve ever made any serious and sustained income from browsers have been Google; and even that’s been indirectly via upselling their other services.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      This is what people said about Search before Kagi. And, incidentally, those folks are also working on a paid browser that real people do buy. Times change. Subscriptions are normalized, and tech people are increasingly aware of the hazards of "free".
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Content is something that is traditionally paid.

tonyhart7 2y ago

then why not modzilla themselves offering their pro version

lolinder 2y ago
That is the question I ask myself every time this comes up, and the only answer I've been able to come up with is "because Google pays them not to".

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ForTheKidz 2y ago

Inevitably, I'd want any feature worth paying for to be freely accessible. Presumably I'm not just trying to support the devs but also fund other people accessing the same features that draw me to firefox in the first place.