14 ms·

She crossed overland. Imagine you do pre-clearance out of a Canadian airport. Can they kidnap you out of country and ship you to a US detention center?

walrus01 2y ago
Canadians may be often unprepared and shocked how aggressive and militarized the southern border is, compared to crossing at northern border land entry points.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  I rarely find the pre-clearance process to be all that nice when compared to internal clearance. When I traveled a lot to NYC I far preferred to fly out of Toronto island and do immigration at Newark vs flying out of Pearson. The tone was entirely different. I personally am not sure that pre-clearance should even continue given current diplomatic tensions. Having an armed foreign police force from a country whose official head of state says it wants to occupy you... doesn't seem wise.
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    US airports love Canada pre-clearance because it allows them to assign planes to any gate. Might be an easy way to gum up the works as retribution.
  - YZF 2y ago
    It varies. In recent years (last decade or so) YVR has been pretty good. Historically there were ups and downs. I doubt a few immigration officers with handguns (can't say for sure they even carry them or carry them out of the airport) are going to take over BC.
    - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      It's not that I think they're some sort of potential foreign occupation force. It's just oddly symbolic and weird, and their powers to detain people, etc. seem entirely problematic in the current context.
- blast 2y ago
  It cuts both ways. Many American friends have told me that they were treated aggressively at the Canadian border as well.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    If you get to chatting with a CBSA officer (Canadian version of CBP), they'll have plenty of stories for you about Americans who want to drive from WA to Alaska with all of their guns in their car and not declare it, or try to bring all kinds of absolutely ridiculous stuff into the country without declaring it. The people who cross the border on a regular basis, like a dozen times a year or more, know the system and policies. It's the tourists and people who rarely cross that have never encountered CBSA that try to treat Canada like some kind of theme park. They're also often unprepared with appropriate ID, documents, receipts and stuff and get weird when CBSA starts asking them exactly the same nature of questions that CBP asks of people going southbound. I would also emphasize that CBSA knows how often you cross, through a US-Canada data sharing agreement. An ALPR system takes a picture of your license plate on your car and very quickly queries a database, for information presented to the question-asking-person, as your vehicle approaches the window. This is assuming you're driving northbound of course. Even if that doesn't happen, they'll ask to see your drivers license along with your passport and immediately know you don't reside anywhere near the border. They know immediately if the zip code where your car is registered is somewhere close to the border, or is very far away from the border. And if you have, or have not, crossed the border recently. It's people from very far away from the border that rarely if ever cross who also think they can take their guns, drugs, etc into Canada and won't get questioned about it.
    - shagie 2y ago
      In '09, after getting laid off I did a road trip around with provisions for "I could go camping if my road trip took me that way." No fire arms or criminal record.. but I'm getting to that. So, going from Seattle up to Banff by way of the Sumas / Huntington crossing... I went in and was asked for the purpose of my visit ("tourist"), duration of stay ("one to two weeks, no more than two"), for my occupation ("I am currently unemployed") and my permanent residence ("I am currently without a permanent residence")... and the officer looked at my car with camping equipment for more than two weeks... and I was sent to have a bit more of a discussion with an agent. Parked my car and went in and waited. While waiting, another family was moving from Washington to Alaska... and they were having difficulties. Three vehicles, four possible drivers, though one was an older woman. One car contained a rifle and one of the drivers had a criminal record. I got to the counter after an hour, explained, was denied entry but that could be rectified if I came back with proof of ties to the United States and proof that I had sufficient funds to be able to stay the duration of my stay without needing any employment. So, got back in my car, got in line to go back to the US and called my parents on my iPhone (still a rather new tech). They happened to have been at the insurance company when I called, and so got insurance for the car that I was driving for Canada - and sent a photo of that insurance and their drivers licenses with the address clearly visible. Got to the US border agent who was confused that I hadn't entered Canada but was clearly coming from Canada and sat in that office for a little bit while they looked to see that yes, I was an American citizen. After half an hour there went to the ATM and got a balance of my accounts. I had more than sufficient funds in the account, and then went back to the border crossing. It was the same agent at the crossing so I didn't need to explain again, but said I had the necessary proof (which surprised him that I got it that quickly) and had me park again and go in to the office. In the office, the family was still trying to figure out what to do. An hour later after they decided that the brother with the criminal record was going to walk back to the US side and that they were going to pay an arm and a leg to register the rifle I got to the counter, showed my parents drivers licenses ("this is where I am going, I had some time without any responsibilities and so decided to tour North America"), the photo of the car insurance for Canada (they called that one in and verified it... again, surprised that I was able to get it so quickly), and matched the account on the ATM receipt with the account that I had for my card... and let me in with some paperwork in my passport noting that I needed to provide that paperwork when leaving the country otherwise entering again could be problematic. Anyways... I had a great time in Canada. Loved Banff and later Waterton. Handed over the papers to ensure I was leaving at Chief Mountain. I'd love to do it again some day... the drive from Kamloops to Banff was one of the most enjoyable "just driving" days I've done. It took a while, but trying to cooperate to the best of my ability and that new "sending pictures around" technology really helped.
- lizknope 2y ago
  I'm an American and I was annoyed at how aggressive and militarized the southern border is. I was on a big road trip across the country visiting national parks. I went to Organ Pipe Nat. Monument in Arizona which literally touches the Mexican border. On my way there I drove through a border patrol checkpoint 10 miles north of the border inside the US. They don't check southbound traffic, only northbound. I never entered Mexico. On the way back I had to stop at that border patrol checkpoint. The border patrol agent was basically yelling at me for my passport. I told him I didn't have it with me. He yelled to see my driver's license. I gave it to him and he yelled at me "Why do you have a North Carolina driver's license?" I replied that is where I live and that is my home address on the license. He then screamed at me "Don't you know this is a prime drug running area?!" I told him "I have no idea and I'm not interested in drugs. There is a national park area 5 miles away, don't you get a lot of tourists here going to see that?" I then noticed in my rear view and side mirrors that another agent was going around my car with a dog sniffing around. After about 2 minutes I saw the dog agent give a thumbs up and the rude agent said "Okay, you can go but you should carry your passport" I had less rude experiences in Texas and California but still overly suspicious border patrol agents. One guy asked me what all the stuff was in my car. I actually offered him granola bars and soda cans and then showed him landscape pictures on my cameras. He realized that I was really a tourist and not into drugs or helping immigrants cross.
  - tshaddox 2y ago
    > Okay, you can go but you should carry your passport Funny, since half of U.S. citizens don't have a passport.
    - blooalien 2y ago
      I thought you only need a passport if you're crossing international borders?
      - ty6853 2y ago
        If you leave US mainland customs zone and go to saipan or Guam or something it will probably slow you down and they might claim you need it, even though you don't. Also Mexico never changed their law like US did, iirc you can still enter Mexico with a birth certificate.
- jml78 2y ago
  It is as bad as it has ever been……… But border patrol has always been a bunch of small dick assholes, all the way back to Obama. My wife and I adopted a child from another country. He was 18 months of age at the time. We flew into LAX. We were exhausted from a long flight. We got to customs. Agents approached us and said that they had a few questions and said that I (the father) needed to collect our bags and they would escort my wife(us citizen), my oldest son (us citizen), and my youngest son(adopted foreign national) to the waiting area. I got our bags and tried to rejoin my family. They denied me entry. Said they had questions for “them”. After an hour I started to have to raise hell because I had all the supplies for my family. Diapers. Food, etc. I was told it obviously took us a while to adopt this kid so we can wait longer. I eventually stated that they were illegally holding two us citizens and I was going to call 911 for them to take me serious. They acted like they didn’t know my wife and oldest wee US citizens. Bunch of bullshit. Fuck those assholes and every one of them that continues to violate our constitutional rights. Signed 12 year US Navy Civilian.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    Now imagine you had no recourse to citizenship and how terrified you would feel. Threatening to call 911 would lead to escalation of crisis rather than its opposite. Having seen what the US gov't did to Maher Arar 20 years ago, I have never felt comfortable crossing that border since, despite being a white middle class Canadian of no suspect at all. Just place, wrong time, wrong person, and it can go so, so badly, without any recourse.
  - ty6853 2y ago
    Lol they've wisened up to that, now they just take your phone in secondary. If you are a veteran they likely just see you as more of a threat.
  - pyuser583 2y ago
    Did the adoption agency warn you about crossing borders? Many families with recent adoptees have terrible experiences. It’s sad, but it’s important to prepare for it. Adoption and human trafficking can look very similar. And border guards are often assholes.
- soupbowl 2y ago
  I am Canadian and I have always had an easier time crossing Into the US. I have been detained multiple times from the Canadian side. I took an espresso repair course just across the boarder in Washington and on my way back I was detained for hours and questioned very aggressively because "there is no such thing as an espresso machine repair course". That being said, I don't doubt the American side can be tough too, though I have never experienced it.
leereeves 2y ago
She crossed overland from Mexico for some reason, not from Canada. The linked article says: "Then they came back and told her that, because they were denying her, that they have to send her back to Canada." Is there a policy that requires that people denied entry be returned to the country they are citizens of?
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  From what I read, the Canadian consulate can't do anything for her. They have her in their system, and she has no rights.
  - leereeves 2y ago
    I read that she was scheduled to be released (sent back to Canada) today, but I can't find any more recent news either way.
    - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
      In a way it's a story only notable because she's middle class and white. These kinds of things happened routinely to people with Arabic or "Muslim" names for a disturbing amount of time after 9/11. Maher Arar being the most famous case.
      - DrillShopper 2y ago
        It is sad that this is now a priority for so many only now that it's affecting affluent white people. They didn't care before, and they only care now for self-preservation.
- lazyasciiart 2y ago
  Mexico would have to officially accept her as a deportee. I’m sure it’s possible, but they “can’t” just let her walk back across the border.

walrus01 2y ago

Canadians may be often unprepared and shocked how aggressive and militarized the southern border is, compared to crossing at northern border land entry points.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
I rarely find the pre-clearance process to be all that nice when compared to internal clearance. When I traveled a lot to NYC I far preferred to fly out of Toronto island and do immigration at Newark vs flying out of Pearson. The tone was entirely different. I personally am not sure that pre-clearance should even continue given current diplomatic tensions. Having an armed foreign police force from a country whose official head of state says it wants to occupy you... doesn't seem wise.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  US airports love Canada pre-clearance because it allows them to assign planes to any gate. Might be an easy way to gum up the works as retribution.
- YZF 2y ago
  It varies. In recent years (last decade or so) YVR has been pretty good. Historically there were ups and downs. I doubt a few immigration officers with handguns (can't say for sure they even carry them or carry them out of the airport) are going to take over BC.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    It's not that I think they're some sort of potential foreign occupation force. It's just oddly symbolic and weird, and their powers to detain people, etc. seem entirely problematic in the current context.
blast 2y ago
It cuts both ways. Many American friends have told me that they were treated aggressively at the Canadian border as well.
- walrus01 2y ago
  If you get to chatting with a CBSA officer (Canadian version of CBP), they'll have plenty of stories for you about Americans who want to drive from WA to Alaska with all of their guns in their car and not declare it, or try to bring all kinds of absolutely ridiculous stuff into the country without declaring it. The people who cross the border on a regular basis, like a dozen times a year or more, know the system and policies. It's the tourists and people who rarely cross that have never encountered CBSA that try to treat Canada like some kind of theme park. They're also often unprepared with appropriate ID, documents, receipts and stuff and get weird when CBSA starts asking them exactly the same nature of questions that CBP asks of people going southbound. I would also emphasize that CBSA knows how often you cross, through a US-Canada data sharing agreement. An ALPR system takes a picture of your license plate on your car and very quickly queries a database, for information presented to the question-asking-person, as your vehicle approaches the window. This is assuming you're driving northbound of course. Even if that doesn't happen, they'll ask to see your drivers license along with your passport and immediately know you don't reside anywhere near the border. They know immediately if the zip code where your car is registered is somewhere close to the border, or is very far away from the border. And if you have, or have not, crossed the border recently. It's people from very far away from the border that rarely if ever cross who also think they can take their guns, drugs, etc into Canada and won't get questioned about it.
  - shagie 2y ago
    In '09, after getting laid off I did a road trip around with provisions for "I could go camping if my road trip took me that way." No fire arms or criminal record.. but I'm getting to that. So, going from Seattle up to Banff by way of the Sumas / Huntington crossing... I went in and was asked for the purpose of my visit ("tourist"), duration of stay ("one to two weeks, no more than two"), for my occupation ("I am currently unemployed") and my permanent residence ("I am currently without a permanent residence")... and the officer looked at my car with camping equipment for more than two weeks... and I was sent to have a bit more of a discussion with an agent. Parked my car and went in and waited. While waiting, another family was moving from Washington to Alaska... and they were having difficulties. Three vehicles, four possible drivers, though one was an older woman. One car contained a rifle and one of the drivers had a criminal record. I got to the counter after an hour, explained, was denied entry but that could be rectified if I came back with proof of ties to the United States and proof that I had sufficient funds to be able to stay the duration of my stay without needing any employment. So, got back in my car, got in line to go back to the US and called my parents on my iPhone (still a rather new tech). They happened to have been at the insurance company when I called, and so got insurance for the car that I was driving for Canada - and sent a photo of that insurance and their drivers licenses with the address clearly visible. Got to the US border agent who was confused that I hadn't entered Canada but was clearly coming from Canada and sat in that office for a little bit while they looked to see that yes, I was an American citizen. After half an hour there went to the ATM and got a balance of my accounts. I had more than sufficient funds in the account, and then went back to the border crossing. It was the same agent at the crossing so I didn't need to explain again, but said I had the necessary proof (which surprised him that I got it that quickly) and had me park again and go in to the office. In the office, the family was still trying to figure out what to do. An hour later after they decided that the brother with the criminal record was going to walk back to the US side and that they were going to pay an arm and a leg to register the rifle I got to the counter, showed my parents drivers licenses ("this is where I am going, I had some time without any responsibilities and so decided to tour North America"), the photo of the car insurance for Canada (they called that one in and verified it... again, surprised that I was able to get it so quickly), and matched the account on the ATM receipt with the account that I had for my card... and let me in with some paperwork in my passport noting that I needed to provide that paperwork when leaving the country otherwise entering again could be problematic. Anyways... I had a great time in Canada. Loved Banff and later Waterton. Handed over the papers to ensure I was leaving at Chief Mountain. I'd love to do it again some day... the drive from Kamloops to Banff was one of the most enjoyable "just driving" days I've done. It took a while, but trying to cooperate to the best of my ability and that new "sending pictures around" technology really helped.
lizknope 2y ago
I'm an American and I was annoyed at how aggressive and militarized the southern border is. I was on a big road trip across the country visiting national parks. I went to Organ Pipe Nat. Monument in Arizona which literally touches the Mexican border. On my way there I drove through a border patrol checkpoint 10 miles north of the border inside the US. They don't check southbound traffic, only northbound. I never entered Mexico. On the way back I had to stop at that border patrol checkpoint. The border patrol agent was basically yelling at me for my passport. I told him I didn't have it with me. He yelled to see my driver's license. I gave it to him and he yelled at me "Why do you have a North Carolina driver's license?" I replied that is where I live and that is my home address on the license. He then screamed at me "Don't you know this is a prime drug running area?!" I told him "I have no idea and I'm not interested in drugs. There is a national park area 5 miles away, don't you get a lot of tourists here going to see that?" I then noticed in my rear view and side mirrors that another agent was going around my car with a dog sniffing around. After about 2 minutes I saw the dog agent give a thumbs up and the rude agent said "Okay, you can go but you should carry your passport" I had less rude experiences in Texas and California but still overly suspicious border patrol agents. One guy asked me what all the stuff was in my car. I actually offered him granola bars and soda cans and then showed him landscape pictures on my cameras. He realized that I was really a tourist and not into drugs or helping immigrants cross.
- tshaddox 2y ago
  > Okay, you can go but you should carry your passport Funny, since half of U.S. citizens don't have a passport.
  - blooalien 2y ago
    I thought you only need a passport if you're crossing international borders?
    - ty6853 2y ago
      If you leave US mainland customs zone and go to saipan or Guam or something it will probably slow you down and they might claim you need it, even though you don't. Also Mexico never changed their law like US did, iirc you can still enter Mexico with a birth certificate.
jml78 2y ago
It is as bad as it has ever been……… But border patrol has always been a bunch of small dick assholes, all the way back to Obama. My wife and I adopted a child from another country. He was 18 months of age at the time. We flew into LAX. We were exhausted from a long flight. We got to customs. Agents approached us and said that they had a few questions and said that I (the father) needed to collect our bags and they would escort my wife(us citizen), my oldest son (us citizen), and my youngest son(adopted foreign national) to the waiting area. I got our bags and tried to rejoin my family. They denied me entry. Said they had questions for “them”. After an hour I started to have to raise hell because I had all the supplies for my family. Diapers. Food, etc. I was told it obviously took us a while to adopt this kid so we can wait longer. I eventually stated that they were illegally holding two us citizens and I was going to call 911 for them to take me serious. They acted like they didn’t know my wife and oldest wee US citizens. Bunch of bullshit. Fuck those assholes and every one of them that continues to violate our constitutional rights. Signed 12 year US Navy Civilian.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Now imagine you had no recourse to citizenship and how terrified you would feel. Threatening to call 911 would lead to escalation of crisis rather than its opposite. Having seen what the US gov't did to Maher Arar 20 years ago, I have never felt comfortable crossing that border since, despite being a white middle class Canadian of no suspect at all. Just place, wrong time, wrong person, and it can go so, so badly, without any recourse.
- ty6853 2y ago
  Lol they've wisened up to that, now they just take your phone in secondary. If you are a veteran they likely just see you as more of a threat.
- pyuser583 2y ago
  Did the adoption agency warn you about crossing borders? Many families with recent adoptees have terrible experiences. It’s sad, but it’s important to prepare for it. Adoption and human trafficking can look very similar. And border guards are often assholes.
soupbowl 2y ago
I am Canadian and I have always had an easier time crossing Into the US. I have been detained multiple times from the Canadian side. I took an espresso repair course just across the boarder in Washington and on my way back I was detained for hours and questioned very aggressively because "there is no such thing as an espresso machine repair course". That being said, I don't doubt the American side can be tough too, though I have never experienced it.

leereeves 2y ago

She crossed overland from Mexico for some reason, not from Canada. The linked article says: "Then they came back and told her that, because they were denying her, that they have to send her back to Canada." Is there a policy that requires that people denied entry be returned to the country they are citizens of?

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
From what I read, the Canadian consulate can't do anything for her. They have her in their system, and she has no rights.
- leereeves 2y ago
  I read that she was scheduled to be released (sent back to Canada) today, but I can't find any more recent news either way.
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    In a way it's a story only notable because she's middle class and white. These kinds of things happened routinely to people with Arabic or "Muslim" names for a disturbing amount of time after 9/11. Maher Arar being the most famous case.
    - DrillShopper 2y ago
      It is sad that this is now a priority for so many only now that it's affecting affluent white people. They didn't care before, and they only care now for self-preservation.
lazyasciiart 2y ago
Mexico would have to officially accept her as a deportee. I’m sure it’s possible, but they “can’t” just let her walk back across the border.