3 ms·

>If you're stick more than a month or something (I forget the exact amount of time) then insurance takes over to help pay your wage so your employer isn't compl

>If you're stick more than a month or something (I forget the exact amount of time) then insurance takes over to help pay your wage so your employer isn't completely hosed Doesn't employers being forced to paying wages to sick employees for 6 weeks take a toll on small businesses with little cashflow? >There's no concept of "sick days" here in Germany like there is back in the US. No, but sick days are still not working days. You still have to report "Krankenstand" to your employer. It's not like whether you work or not because you're sick it's the same thing to your employer and to the law. Sick days are a thing, just not like in the US, but they're still sick days, and not working days. >I'm sure many people are taking time off of Tesla work due to stress, which is a valid reason to get a doctor's note here. I'm always curious about this. How often can you get day off for stress? How do employers or health insurers differentiate between stress as a health condition and being lazy and not wanting to work? Because I remember one time, our offshore team in Germany seemed to all be always mysteriously "getting sick" right before we had a SW release scheduled, leaving us holding the bags. Huh, what a weird coincidence. /s If you look at recent statistics, German workers are at the top of sick days used, twice as much sick days than the EU average, which is an insane difference. So what's going on? Is there a health crisis in Germany causing Germans to be twice as sick as their neighbors? Or are they twice as likely to cheat the system? Or a bit of both?

rob74 2y ago
> I'm always curious about this. How often can you get day off for stress? As often as your doctor will allow/approve it?
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  Of course, but what doctors can and can't do is restricted by the regulations of the national health insurance/organization. For example in Austria a doctor can't easily write you sick for stress over and over without getting in hot water with the national health insurance board. After too many sick days, you get summoned for "an audit" to the national insurance doctor for an examination to check why are you sick so often, and unless you show some test results that can prove that you can't work, then that doctor will declare you fit for work and then you are forced to return to work. There was a case in the news where one worker had to sue the national health insource to be classified as permanently unfit for work(disability) due to long covid since the national insure was not accepting/recognizing her long covid and calling her fit for work. It's pretty brutal sometimes, the system has grifters on both sides leading to misery.
  - rob74 2y ago
    Sure, and that influences what the doctor will allow/approve :)
seszett 2y ago
> How do employers or health insurers differentiate between stress as a health condition and being lazy and not wanting to work? They don't, it's the job of the doctor that examines the patient and writes the note.
lores 2y ago
Bit of both, I think. German winters are nasty, cold, and damp, it has the third-highest median age behind Japan and Italy, kids universally go to kindergarten to bring germs home, and it has a culture where you don't show up if actually ill - it's worth noting that a non-sick day does not mean a productive day, especially if your colleagues catch your illness. But also, Germans are pretty intense, despite their image of relaxed, easy-going people*. In my experience, they're very dedicated, but also take no shit. I can well see that if they think the work balance is not right, or they're not treated like human beings or getting a fair deal in some manner, they'll take it upon themselves to make it fair. If your company acts like a typical American one, I can well see a culture clash. Anecdotal, of course. *it's a joke. I love you, Germans.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >German winters are nasty, cold, and damp Worse than Nordics/Scandinavia or neighboring Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Poland? They don't have winter clothing in Germany? > If your company acts like a typical American one, I can well see a culture clash. Most of German workers work for German companies following German laws and German culture, not American companies. So why twice the sick days versus EU neighbours?
  - stnikolauswagne 2y ago
    >Most of German workers work for German companies following German laws and German culture, not American companies. So why twice the sick days versus EU neighbours? Which EU neighbours are we talking about? A cursory check shows them to be up by like 20ish% compared to czechia and poland, (which have decent sick pay) but up immensely compared to France and the UK (which do not). If #of sick days scales with % of sick pay it would make perfect sense for germany to be on top, do you have a decent dataset on #sick days by any chance? I was unable to find consistent data on this.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >but up immensely compared to France and the UK (which do not) Do not what? >do you have a decent dataset on #sick days by any chance? I mean just google. For example: https://www.nzz.ch/english/why-europes-appetite-for-work-is-declining-with-germany-in-the-lead-ld.1857939 https://www.nzz.ch/english/why-europes-appetite-for-work-is-...
closewith 2y ago
> If you look at recent statistics, German workers are at the top of sick days used, twice as much sick days than the EU average, which is an insane difference. So what's going on? Is there a health crisis in Germany causing Germans to be twice as sick as their neighbors? Or are they twice as likely to cheat the system? Or a bit of both? Both are obviously factors, but there is also another category, people who are legitimately stressed to a degree that affects their health but who are forced to continue working in other jurisdictions due to the lack of employee protections. All labour is exploited - the degree to which it is is limited by law in each country. Germany just allows less severe exploitation than Ireland or Austria or - obviously - the United States.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  >All labour is exploited - the degree to which it is is limited by law in each country. That's very reductionist to say that ALL labor is exploited, least of all privileged well paid white collar jobs in rich western countries, and undermines the actual labor exploitation going on out there. Sure, you might consider yourself exploited with a measly 100k+/year wage because your CEO makes over 200x that, but the majority of the population will disagree and have no sympathy on that being remotely resembling exploitation.
  - closewith 2y ago
    > That's very reductionist to say that ALL labor is exploited, least of all privileged well paid white collar jobs in rich western countries, and undermines the actual labor exploitation going on out there. All labour is exploited, even the most pampered employees. That's why it's important that even those most well-paid and well-treated employees lend their support to others through supporting unions and the global labour movement. > Sure, you might consider yourself exploited with a measly 100k+/year wage because your CEO makes over 200x that, but the majority of the population will disagree and have no sympathy on that being remotely resembling exploitation. Divide and conquer has been the oppressors' tactic of choice for millennia. The tried-and-tested counter is class solidarity. Don't fool yourself into thinking you aren't working class just because your wages are higher than others.
junon 2y ago
> Doesn't employers being forced to paying wages to sick employees for 6 weeks take a toll on small businesses with little cashflow? Insurance kicks in and pays after 6 weeks (not a month, another comment corrected me). It's also part of the expectation when you hire. It's a problem sometimes, yes, but everyone - even employers - benefits from it. > Sick days are a thing, just not like in the US, but they're still sick days, and not working days. There is no federal law in the U.S. that mandates paid sick leave for employees; however, the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) allows eligible employees to take up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave for certain medical situations. Federal employees are entitled to 13 paid sick days per year. > Is there a health crisis in Germany causing Germans to be twice as sick as their neighbors? No. People get sick. There's an obesity and mental crisis in the US, too, whether it's comfortable or not for someone to acknowledge.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  Why are you brining in the US when I was asking about Germany? I don't care about the US since I don't live there. >No. People get sick. But why a lot more than the rest of Europe? That's what you didn't answer. If you'd get sick twice as much than average your doctor would probably do some extra test on you.

rob74 2y ago

> I'm always curious about this. How often can you get day off for stress? As often as your doctor will allow/approve it?

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
Of course, but what doctors can and can't do is restricted by the regulations of the national health insurance/organization. For example in Austria a doctor can't easily write you sick for stress over and over without getting in hot water with the national health insurance board. After too many sick days, you get summoned for "an audit" to the national insurance doctor for an examination to check why are you sick so often, and unless you show some test results that can prove that you can't work, then that doctor will declare you fit for work and then you are forced to return to work. There was a case in the news where one worker had to sue the national health insource to be classified as permanently unfit for work(disability) due to long covid since the national insure was not accepting/recognizing her long covid and calling her fit for work. It's pretty brutal sometimes, the system has grifters on both sides leading to misery.
- rob74 2y ago
  Sure, and that influences what the doctor will allow/approve :)

seszett 2y ago

> How do employers or health insurers differentiate between stress as a health condition and being lazy and not wanting to work? They don't, it's the job of the doctor that examines the patient and writes the note.

lores 2y ago

Bit of both, I think. German winters are nasty, cold, and damp, it has the third-highest median age behind Japan and Italy, kids universally go to kindergarten to bring germs home, and it has a culture where you don't show up if actually ill - it's worth noting that a non-sick day does not mean a productive day, especially if your colleagues catch your illness. But also, Germans are pretty intense, despite their image of relaxed, easy-going people*. In my experience, they're very dedicated, but also take no shit. I can well see that if they think the work balance is not right, or they're not treated like human beings or getting a fair deal in some manner, they'll take it upon themselves to make it fair. If your company acts like a typical American one, I can well see a culture clash. Anecdotal, of course. *it's a joke. I love you, Germans.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>German winters are nasty, cold, and damp Worse than Nordics/Scandinavia or neighboring Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Poland? They don't have winter clothing in Germany? > If your company acts like a typical American one, I can well see a culture clash. Most of German workers work for German companies following German laws and German culture, not American companies. So why twice the sick days versus EU neighbours?
- stnikolauswagne 2y ago
  >Most of German workers work for German companies following German laws and German culture, not American companies. So why twice the sick days versus EU neighbours? Which EU neighbours are we talking about? A cursory check shows them to be up by like 20ish% compared to czechia and poland, (which have decent sick pay) but up immensely compared to France and the UK (which do not). If #of sick days scales with % of sick pay it would make perfect sense for germany to be on top, do you have a decent dataset on #sick days by any chance? I was unable to find consistent data on this.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >but up immensely compared to France and the UK (which do not) Do not what? >do you have a decent dataset on #sick days by any chance? I mean just google. For example: https://www.nzz.ch/english/why-europes-appetite-for-work-is-declining-with-germany-in-the-lead-ld.1857939 https://www.nzz.ch/english/why-europes-appetite-for-work-is-...

closewith 2y ago

> If you look at recent statistics, German workers are at the top of sick days used, twice as much sick days than the EU average, which is an insane difference. So what's going on? Is there a health crisis in Germany causing Germans to be twice as sick as their neighbors? Or are they twice as likely to cheat the system? Or a bit of both? Both are obviously factors, but there is also another category, people who are legitimately stressed to a degree that affects their health but who are forced to continue working in other jurisdictions due to the lack of employee protections. All labour is exploited - the degree to which it is is limited by law in each country. Germany just allows less severe exploitation than Ireland or Austria or - obviously - the United States.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
>All labour is exploited - the degree to which it is is limited by law in each country. That's very reductionist to say that ALL labor is exploited, least of all privileged well paid white collar jobs in rich western countries, and undermines the actual labor exploitation going on out there. Sure, you might consider yourself exploited with a measly 100k+/year wage because your CEO makes over 200x that, but the majority of the population will disagree and have no sympathy on that being remotely resembling exploitation.
- closewith 2y ago
  > That's very reductionist to say that ALL labor is exploited, least of all privileged well paid white collar jobs in rich western countries, and undermines the actual labor exploitation going on out there. All labour is exploited, even the most pampered employees. That's why it's important that even those most well-paid and well-treated employees lend their support to others through supporting unions and the global labour movement. > Sure, you might consider yourself exploited with a measly 100k+/year wage because your CEO makes over 200x that, but the majority of the population will disagree and have no sympathy on that being remotely resembling exploitation. Divide and conquer has been the oppressors' tactic of choice for millennia. The tried-and-tested counter is class solidarity. Don't fool yourself into thinking you aren't working class just because your wages are higher than others.

junon 2y ago

> Doesn't employers being forced to paying wages to sick employees for 6 weeks take a toll on small businesses with little cashflow? Insurance kicks in and pays after 6 weeks (not a month, another comment corrected me). It's also part of the expectation when you hire. It's a problem sometimes, yes, but everyone - even employers - benefits from it. > Sick days are a thing, just not like in the US, but they're still sick days, and not working days. There is no federal law in the U.S. that mandates paid sick leave for employees; however, the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) allows eligible employees to take up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave for certain medical situations. Federal employees are entitled to 13 paid sick days per year. > Is there a health crisis in Germany causing Germans to be twice as sick as their neighbors? No. People get sick. There's an obesity and mental crisis in the US, too, whether it's comfortable or not for someone to acknowledge.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
Why are you brining in the US when I was asking about Germany? I don't care about the US since I don't live there. >No. People get sick. But why a lot more than the rest of Europe? That's what you didn't answer. If you'd get sick twice as much than average your doctor would probably do some extra test on you.