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> My thinking is... can you put this 100% on Sandberg? I mean, I get that the culture is bad, but there's two in this game. Maybe... turn off your phone for a d

by kelnos 2y ago

> My thinking is... can you put this 100% on Sandberg? I mean, I get that the culture is bad, but there's two in this game. Maybe... turn off your phone for a day when you're giving birth?! Sure, but you can look at this in one of two ways. One is the way you seem to be angling for, where we have an employee who is so disturbingly eager to please that she continues to do work at absurd times when no one should ever expect to be working. The other way is of an employee who has seen how her boss treats employees, and believes that her position, career, and livelihood would be in jeopardy if she wasn't working even in situations where no one should be expected to be working. I think the second take is more likely. And even if we think it's bizarre that someone could get to the point where they believe that kind of devotion to their job is necessary, it's still alarming and raises red flags that a company culture could cause someone to get to the point that they'd feel that way.

raverbashing 2y ago
> The other way is of an employee who has seen how her boss treats employees, and believes that her position, career, and livelihood would be in jeopardy if she wasn't working even in situations where no one should be expected to be working. Honestly, they need to grow a pair This kind of pressure (might) have worked for me if I was just out of university and such. But with experience you get to learn your boundaries You're a top-level executive and you're afraid of being let go by such a silly thing? They can't wait 2 or 3 days for "top level bullet points"? Seems like they depend on you more than you depend on them
- amval 2y ago
  Big companies tend to develop cult dynamics. This is not an exaggeration, but a consequence of how humans tend to operate in large amounts. And I'd wager that in the case of Silicon Valley tech companies, this is also something that they embrace and nurture. I don't think this is a controversial take at all, and rather obvious. She was probably not "afraid of being let go" (fired), but had convinced herself that it was of the utmost importance to have this level of committment. The book probably reads similar to those books of someone who leaves their church or cult.
  - spoonjim 2y ago
    They tend to have cult dynamics because the people who subscribe to the cult dynamics are the ones who get promoted. If you’re happy to just make a living as a software engineer instead of trying to propel your way up the ladder of the world’s richest companies then you can live very happily and comfortably.
    - coliveira 2y ago
      Yes, but this is not the people they'll hire for this kind of job. They're looking for the batshit crazy that will do this kind of stuff. This is the reason for the psychological profile they do in lieu of interview, when hiring managers.
- linotype 2y ago
  Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. These cowards are ruining workplaces everywhere by having no backbone and subjecting their subordinates to the whims of psychopathic leaders. Edit: it’s OK Meta employees. The best time to quit was years ago, the second best time is today.
  - raverbashing 2y ago
    At least they were not sleeping under their desks to stroke Musks's egomania.
theK 2y ago
I am inclined to agree with you but I do have a bit of nuance to add. Pretty sure this is not going to be a popular opinion but I think the second POV you present is apt but dependant on hierarchy level as well as each individual's drive to succeed. From my understanding that incident happened while she was in a directorial position, not some IC level. At that level one has to constantly actively balance private life and work, no one will do it for you. I am all for supporting employees on all levels (and sure her superior could and should have done some things differently) but if your aspirations and perseverance get you to the point where you are flirting with the C suite, you should also be aware the you own your decisions now.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  On the other hand, if you are that far in, that you are "flirting with the C suite", it is almost impossible not to have knowledge about you having joined a data gobbling sect/mafia, that will eat you up alive, if you upset them. So while she should have been aware that she makes her own decisions, she might also have been aware of what happens, if she does.
  - theK 2y ago
    > while she should have been aware that she makes her own decisions, she might also have been aware of what happens, if she does. I don't understand. In my world view, owning your decisions includes understanding the paths those decisions might lead to and finding your ~piece~peace with that. EDIT: s/piece/peace/
    - latexr 2y ago
      > EDIT: s/piece/peace/ This is a minor typo whose real intent was still understandable, you fixed it right away, and no one had replied yet. Adding the fake strike through and edit note makes your post a bit harder and more inconvenient to read with no advantage. You can just edit it in place, there would be no harm to it.
      - 2y ago
blitzar 2y ago
If Sandberg was a man it would not have happened. Woman-on-Woman violence in the workplace has to stop, instead of trying to constantly take each other down they need to be better allies to other women. Especially true for those that aspire to be role models for successful women and write books about how to "Lean In".
- lynx97 2y ago
  I am sorry, but this attitude is sexist. My allies are those I can relate to, those which I can cooperate with. I don't pick my allies based on gender, and nor should you. And you shouldn't coerce anyone into forming alliances based on gender. It is the person that matters, not their gender or race or whatever other random attribute.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    Its sexism all the way down - Sandberg would not have done that to a male subordinate (who's wife was giving birth) and a male boss would not have done that to Wynn-Williams. Women should not discriminate against women in the workplace because they are women.
    - milesrout 2y ago
      Plenty of men get asked to do work that takes them away from their families, including at special events. Controversial, but shouldn't be: men are on average better at standing up for themselves and saying "no".
      - k_g_b_ 2y ago
        I'm not sure whether men are truly better on average, or women are just on average more conditioned by our societies not to do so or even if, to do so in a manner that isn't effective. Unlearning ~2 decades of upbringing, education, expectations, some of that from religion, etc when entering the workforce could be pretty hard and significantly affect any statistics around this.
spoonjim 2y ago
I agree for something like a McDonalds employee or even entry level software engineer but this is a senior managerial role at Facebook. Nobody needs to do this job. Unless your spending is out of control you do not need this income. So if it comes with unreasonable demands, I don’t really care. There are problems worth caring about and this ain’t one of them.
- pastage 2y ago
  What the leadership does will be mirrored down to the grunt. I have never lead a multi billion dollars corporation but from my view if your team can discard someone easily, they can also bear not having that person around for two weeks. Or a year. Honestly I feel that father and mothers getting back from a years parental leave usually comes back with better focus.
zelphirkalt 2y ago
In an alternative version of reality, she would be so distracted, that she failed to give birth and the child died as a consequence of her being completely absorbed in a toxic work culture. That alternative version of reality would be completely believable, and probably many would not be more surprised than now reading this news. This tells us all we need to know about FB.
- immibis 2y ago
  I don't think giving birth works that way.
stef25 2y ago
If you have a job at Facebook today, you can get an impressive job somewhere else tomorrow. Nobody should be that connected.
rurp 2y ago
It seems pretty extreme to say that her livelihood was in jeopardy given that her salary was probably an order of magnitude more than an average worker. She likely put up with that and other toxic behavior because she was highly ambitious and wanted to keep making immense amounts of money. This doesn't excuse Sandberg at all, I'm sure she would be a horrifically bad person to work for. But when I read that section I immediately thought of highly ambitious people I've worked with who I could see on either side of that encounter. Such people often are highly materially successful, although most of them don't seem very happy about it.

by kelnos 2y ago

raverbashing 2y ago

> The other way is of an employee who has seen how her boss treats employees, and believes that her position, career, and livelihood would be in jeopardy if she wasn't working even in situations where no one should be expected to be working. Honestly, they need to grow a pair This kind of pressure (might) have worked for me if I was just out of university and such. But with experience you get to learn your boundaries You're a top-level executive and you're afraid of being let go by such a silly thing? They can't wait 2 or 3 days for "top level bullet points"? Seems like they depend on you more than you depend on them

amval 2y ago
Big companies tend to develop cult dynamics. This is not an exaggeration, but a consequence of how humans tend to operate in large amounts. And I'd wager that in the case of Silicon Valley tech companies, this is also something that they embrace and nurture. I don't think this is a controversial take at all, and rather obvious. She was probably not "afraid of being let go" (fired), but had convinced herself that it was of the utmost importance to have this level of committment. The book probably reads similar to those books of someone who leaves their church or cult.
- spoonjim 2y ago
  They tend to have cult dynamics because the people who subscribe to the cult dynamics are the ones who get promoted. If you’re happy to just make a living as a software engineer instead of trying to propel your way up the ladder of the world’s richest companies then you can live very happily and comfortably.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Yes, but this is not the people they'll hire for this kind of job. They're looking for the batshit crazy that will do this kind of stuff. This is the reason for the psychological profile they do in lieu of interview, when hiring managers.
linotype 2y ago
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. These cowards are ruining workplaces everywhere by having no backbone and subjecting their subordinates to the whims of psychopathic leaders. Edit: it’s OK Meta employees. The best time to quit was years ago, the second best time is today.
- raverbashing 2y ago
  At least they were not sleeping under their desks to stroke Musks's egomania.

theK 2y ago

I am inclined to agree with you but I do have a bit of nuance to add. Pretty sure this is not going to be a popular opinion but I think the second POV you present is apt but dependant on hierarchy level as well as each individual's drive to succeed. From my understanding that incident happened while she was in a directorial position, not some IC level. At that level one has to constantly actively balance private life and work, no one will do it for you. I am all for supporting employees on all levels (and sure her superior could and should have done some things differently) but if your aspirations and perseverance get you to the point where you are flirting with the C suite, you should also be aware the you own your decisions now.

zelphirkalt 2y ago
On the other hand, if you are that far in, that you are "flirting with the C suite", it is almost impossible not to have knowledge about you having joined a data gobbling sect/mafia, that will eat you up alive, if you upset them. So while she should have been aware that she makes her own decisions, she might also have been aware of what happens, if she does.
- theK 2y ago
  > while she should have been aware that she makes her own decisions, she might also have been aware of what happens, if she does. I don't understand. In my world view, owning your decisions includes understanding the paths those decisions might lead to and finding your ~piece~peace with that. EDIT: s/piece/peace/
  - latexr 2y ago
    > EDIT: s/piece/peace/ This is a minor typo whose real intent was still understandable, you fixed it right away, and no one had replied yet. Adding the fake strike through and edit note makes your post a bit harder and more inconvenient to read with no advantage. You can just edit it in place, there would be no harm to it.
    - 2y ago

blitzar 2y ago

If Sandberg was a man it would not have happened. Woman-on-Woman violence in the workplace has to stop, instead of trying to constantly take each other down they need to be better allies to other women. Especially true for those that aspire to be role models for successful women and write books about how to "Lean In".

lynx97 2y ago
I am sorry, but this attitude is sexist. My allies are those I can relate to, those which I can cooperate with. I don't pick my allies based on gender, and nor should you. And you shouldn't coerce anyone into forming alliances based on gender. It is the person that matters, not their gender or race or whatever other random attribute.
- blitzar 2y ago
  Its sexism all the way down - Sandberg would not have done that to a male subordinate (who's wife was giving birth) and a male boss would not have done that to Wynn-Williams. Women should not discriminate against women in the workplace because they are women.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    Plenty of men get asked to do work that takes them away from their families, including at special events. Controversial, but shouldn't be: men are on average better at standing up for themselves and saying "no".
    - k_g_b_ 2y ago
      I'm not sure whether men are truly better on average, or women are just on average more conditioned by our societies not to do so or even if, to do so in a manner that isn't effective. Unlearning ~2 decades of upbringing, education, expectations, some of that from religion, etc when entering the workforce could be pretty hard and significantly affect any statistics around this.

spoonjim 2y ago

I agree for something like a McDonalds employee or even entry level software engineer but this is a senior managerial role at Facebook. Nobody needs to do this job. Unless your spending is out of control you do not need this income. So if it comes with unreasonable demands, I don’t really care. There are problems worth caring about and this ain’t one of them.

pastage 2y ago
What the leadership does will be mirrored down to the grunt. I have never lead a multi billion dollars corporation but from my view if your team can discard someone easily, they can also bear not having that person around for two weeks. Or a year. Honestly I feel that father and mothers getting back from a years parental leave usually comes back with better focus.

zelphirkalt 2y ago

In an alternative version of reality, she would be so distracted, that she failed to give birth and the child died as a consequence of her being completely absorbed in a toxic work culture. That alternative version of reality would be completely believable, and probably many would not be more surprised than now reading this news. This tells us all we need to know about FB.

immibis 2y ago
I don't think giving birth works that way.

stef25 2y ago

If you have a job at Facebook today, you can get an impressive job somewhere else tomorrow. Nobody should be that connected.

rurp 2y ago

It seems pretty extreme to say that her livelihood was in jeopardy given that her salary was probably an order of magnitude more than an average worker. She likely put up with that and other toxic behavior because she was highly ambitious and wanted to keep making immense amounts of money. This doesn't excuse Sandberg at all, I'm sure she would be a horrifically bad person to work for. But when I read that section I immediately thought of highly ambitious people I've worked with who I could see on either side of that encounter. Such people often are highly materially successful, although most of them don't seem very happy about it.