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I missed the part where OpenAI got library cards for all the libraries in the world. Is having a library card a requirement for being hired over there?

ben_w 2y ago
I don't need a card to read in the library, nor to use the photocopiers there, but it's merely one example anyway. (If it wasn't, you'd only need one library, any of the deposit libraries will do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit). You also don't need permission, as a human, to read (and learn from) the internet in general. Machines by standard practice require such permission, hence robots.txt, and OpenAI's GPTBot complies with the robots.txt file and the company gives advice to web operators about how to disallow their bot. How AI should be treated, more like a search index, or more like a mind that can learn by reading? Not my call. It's a new thing, and laws can be driven by economics or by moral outrage, and in this case those two driving forces are at odds.
- triceratops 2y ago
  We started with libraries and books, now you're moving the goalposts to websites. Sidenote: I wouldn't even be mad if OpenAI built robots to go into all of the libraries and read all of the books. That would be amazing!
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I started with libraries. OpenAI started with the internet. The argument for both is identical, your objection is specific to libraries. IIRC, Google already did your sidenote. Or started to, may have had legal issues.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > The argument for both is identical How so? I don't have to pay to read most websites. To read most books I have to pay (or a library has to pay and I have to wait to get the book). > IIRC, Google already did your sidenote Not quite. They had to chop the spines off books and have humans feed them into scanners. I'm talking about a robot that can walk (or roll) into a library, use arms to take books off the shelves, turn the pages and read them without putting them into a scanner.
      - philipkglass 2y ago
        They had humans turn the pages of intact books in scanning machines. The books mostly came from the shelves of academic libraries and were returned to the shelves after scanning. You can see some incidental captures of hands/fingers in the scans on Google Books or HathiTrust (the academic home of the Google Books scans). There are some examples collected here: https://theartofgooglebooks.tumblr.com/ https://theartofgooglebooks.tumblr.com/
      - ben_w 2y ago
        > How so? I don't have to pay to read most websites. To read most books I have to pay (or a library has to pay and I have to wait to get the book). "or" does a lot of work, even ignoring that I'd already linked you to a page about deposit libraries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit Fact is, you can read books for free, just as you can read (many but not all) websites for free. And in both cases you're allowed to use what you learned without paying ongoing licensing fees for having learned anything from either, and even to make money from what you learn. > Not quite. They had to chop the spines off books and have humans feed them into scanners. Your statement is over 20 years out of date: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7508978B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7508978B1/en
dylan604 2y ago
I missed the part where we throw away rational logic skills Have you never been to a public library and read a book while sitting there without checking it out? Clearly, age is a factor here, and us olds are confused by this lack of understanding of how libraries function. I did my entire term paper without ever checking out books from the library. I just showed up with my stack of blank index cards, then left with the necessary info written on them. Did an entire project on tracking stocks by visiting the library and viewing all of the papers for the days in one sitting rather than being schmuck and tracking it daily. Took me about an hour in one day. No library card required. Also, a library card is ridiculously cheap even if you did decide to have one.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  If I spent every last second of my life in a public library, I couldn't even view a fraction of the information that OpenAI has ingested. The comparison is irrelevant. To make the comparison somehow valid, I'd have to back up my truck to a public library, steal the entire contents, then start selling copies out of my garage
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Look, even I'm not a fan of ClosedAI, but this is ridiculous. ClosedAI isn't giving copies of anything. It is giving you a response it infers based on things it has "read" and/or "learned" by reading content. Does ClosedAI store a copy of the content it scrapes, or does it immediately start tokenizing it or whatever is involved in training? If they store it, that's a lot of data, and we should be able to prove that sites were scraped through lawsuit discovery process. Are you then also suggesting that ClosedAI will sell you copies of that raw data if you prompted correctly? I'm in no way justifying anything about GPT/LLM training. I'm just calling out that these comparisons are extremely strained.
    - codedokode 2y ago
      Let's say OpenAI developers use illegal copy of Windows on their laptops to save on buying a license. Is that ok to run a business this way? Also I think it is different thing when someone uses copyrighted works for research and publishing a paper or when someone uses copyrighted works to earn money.

ben_w 2y ago

I don't need a card to read in the library, nor to use the photocopiers there, but it's merely one example anyway. (If it wasn't, you'd only need one library, any of the deposit libraries will do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit). You also don't need permission, as a human, to read (and learn from) the internet in general. Machines by standard practice require such permission, hence robots.txt, and OpenAI's GPTBot complies with the robots.txt file and the company gives advice to web operators about how to disallow their bot. How AI should be treated, more like a search index, or more like a mind that can learn by reading? Not my call. It's a new thing, and laws can be driven by economics or by moral outrage, and in this case those two driving forces are at odds.

triceratops 2y ago
We started with libraries and books, now you're moving the goalposts to websites. Sidenote: I wouldn't even be mad if OpenAI built robots to go into all of the libraries and read all of the books. That would be amazing!
- ben_w 2y ago
  I started with libraries. OpenAI started with the internet. The argument for both is identical, your objection is specific to libraries. IIRC, Google already did your sidenote. Or started to, may have had legal issues.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > The argument for both is identical How so? I don't have to pay to read most websites. To read most books I have to pay (or a library has to pay and I have to wait to get the book). > IIRC, Google already did your sidenote Not quite. They had to chop the spines off books and have humans feed them into scanners. I'm talking about a robot that can walk (or roll) into a library, use arms to take books off the shelves, turn the pages and read them without putting them into a scanner.
    - philipkglass 2y ago
      They had humans turn the pages of intact books in scanning machines. The books mostly came from the shelves of academic libraries and were returned to the shelves after scanning. You can see some incidental captures of hands/fingers in the scans on Google Books or HathiTrust (the academic home of the Google Books scans). There are some examples collected here: https://theartofgooglebooks.tumblr.com/ https://theartofgooglebooks.tumblr.com/
    - ben_w 2y ago
      > How so? I don't have to pay to read most websites. To read most books I have to pay (or a library has to pay and I have to wait to get the book). "or" does a lot of work, even ignoring that I'd already linked you to a page about deposit libraries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_deposit Fact is, you can read books for free, just as you can read (many but not all) websites for free. And in both cases you're allowed to use what you learned without paying ongoing licensing fees for having learned anything from either, and even to make money from what you learn. > Not quite. They had to chop the spines off books and have humans feed them into scanners. Your statement is over 20 years out of date: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7508978B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US7508978B1/en

dylan604 2y ago

I missed the part where we throw away rational logic skills Have you never been to a public library and read a book while sitting there without checking it out? Clearly, age is a factor here, and us olds are confused by this lack of understanding of how libraries function. I did my entire term paper without ever checking out books from the library. I just showed up with my stack of blank index cards, then left with the necessary info written on them. Did an entire project on tracking stocks by visiting the library and viewing all of the papers for the days in one sitting rather than being schmuck and tracking it daily. Took me about an hour in one day. No library card required. Also, a library card is ridiculously cheap even if you did decide to have one.

sidewndr46 2y ago
If I spent every last second of my life in a public library, I couldn't even view a fraction of the information that OpenAI has ingested. The comparison is irrelevant. To make the comparison somehow valid, I'd have to back up my truck to a public library, steal the entire contents, then start selling copies out of my garage
- dylan604 2y ago
  Look, even I'm not a fan of ClosedAI, but this is ridiculous. ClosedAI isn't giving copies of anything. It is giving you a response it infers based on things it has "read" and/or "learned" by reading content. Does ClosedAI store a copy of the content it scrapes, or does it immediately start tokenizing it or whatever is involved in training? If they store it, that's a lot of data, and we should be able to prove that sites were scraped through lawsuit discovery process. Are you then also suggesting that ClosedAI will sell you copies of that raw data if you prompted correctly? I'm in no way justifying anything about GPT/LLM training. I'm just calling out that these comparisons are extremely strained.
  - codedokode 2y ago
    Let's say OpenAI developers use illegal copy of Windows on their laptops to save on buying a license. Is that ok to run a business this way? Also I think it is different thing when someone uses copyrighted works for research and publishing a paper or when someone uses copyrighted works to earn money.