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> because they're letting AI do all the work This is an unnecessary hyperbole. It's like saying that your reportees do all the work for you. You need to put in

> because they're letting AI do all the work This is an unnecessary hyperbole. It's like saying that your reportees do all the work for you. You need to put in an effort to understand the strengths and weaknesses of AI and put it to good work and make sure to double check its result. Low-skill individuals are not going to get great results for moderately complex tasks with AI. It's absurd to think it will do "all the work". I believe we are on the point of SW engineering skills shifting from understanding all the details of programming language and tooling more to higher level thinking and design. Although I see without proper processes (code reviews, guidelines, etc.) use of AI can get out of hand to the point of a very bloated and unmaintainable code base. Well, as with any powerful technology it has to be handled with care.

moffkalast 2y ago
Those damn kids, compilers and linters doing all the work for them. Back in my day we punched bits into a card by hand. /s It's just people ranting about another level of abstraction, like always.
- Tainnor 2y ago
  Those other levels of abstraction that you mentioned are deterministic and predictable. I think that's a massive difference and it justifies why one should be more skeptical towards AI generated code (skeptical doesn't mean "outright dismissing" tbf).
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    Deterministic tab completion generates horseshit half the time too, at the end of the day you have to know what you're doing in either case imo. You can also run an LLM in deterministic mode, but performance is usually worse.
  - SleepyMyroslav 2y ago
    Fun fact that we have burned those bridges years ago. Every time big codebase updates it's main optimizing toolchain (compiler/linker) ... there is nothing deterministic and predictable. There is only what has been re-tested and what has not been.
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      > there is nothing deterministic https://reproducible-builds.org/ https://reproducible-builds.org/ > nothing [...] and predictable Even if the build isn't bit-for-bit-reproducible, any reasonable toolchain will, at least, give predictably equivalent results.
- myaccountonhn 2y ago
  Another level of abstraction that has its real world cost made invisible, from job displacement to environmental damage.
  - artursapek 2y ago
    I never saw anyone on HN bemoan the “environmental damage” of data centers until LLMs started popping up. As if all other software and internet tech is necessary and “worth it”?
    - consteval 2y ago
      They did, with crypto. The environmental cost of, like, a website is minuscule in comparison.
      - brulard 2y ago
        Yes, and they found ways to avoid 99.99% of power consumptions by moving away from proof of work, which most of the blockchains use today. But the hate remained.
        consteval 2y ago
        Well the hate is now mostly because it’s used as a speculative security to run scams.
    - myaccountonhn 2y ago
      The energy usage is massive though, and we definitely should be asking ourselves if other solutions from cloud, crypto, streaming etc are worth expanding. The industry’s environmental footprint is on par with aviation, and with AI we’re set to increase our emissions massively when we should be decreasing them.

moffkalast 2y ago

Those damn kids, compilers and linters doing all the work for them. Back in my day we punched bits into a card by hand. /s It's just people ranting about another level of abstraction, like always.

Tainnor 2y ago
Those other levels of abstraction that you mentioned are deterministic and predictable. I think that's a massive difference and it justifies why one should be more skeptical towards AI generated code (skeptical doesn't mean "outright dismissing" tbf).
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Deterministic tab completion generates horseshit half the time too, at the end of the day you have to know what you're doing in either case imo. You can also run an LLM in deterministic mode, but performance is usually worse.
- SleepyMyroslav 2y ago
  Fun fact that we have burned those bridges years ago. Every time big codebase updates it's main optimizing toolchain (compiler/linker) ... there is nothing deterministic and predictable. There is only what has been re-tested and what has not been.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    > there is nothing deterministic https://reproducible-builds.org/ https://reproducible-builds.org/ > nothing [...] and predictable Even if the build isn't bit-for-bit-reproducible, any reasonable toolchain will, at least, give predictably equivalent results.
myaccountonhn 2y ago
Another level of abstraction that has its real world cost made invisible, from job displacement to environmental damage.
- artursapek 2y ago
  I never saw anyone on HN bemoan the “environmental damage” of data centers until LLMs started popping up. As if all other software and internet tech is necessary and “worth it”?
  - consteval 2y ago
    They did, with crypto. The environmental cost of, like, a website is minuscule in comparison.
    - brulard 2y ago
      Yes, and they found ways to avoid 99.99% of power consumptions by moving away from proof of work, which most of the blockchains use today. But the hate remained.
      - consteval 2y ago
        Well the hate is now mostly because it’s used as a speculative security to run scams.
  - myaccountonhn 2y ago
    The energy usage is massive though, and we definitely should be asking ourselves if other solutions from cloud, crypto, streaming etc are worth expanding. The industry’s environmental footprint is on par with aviation, and with AI we’re set to increase our emissions massively when we should be decreasing them.