4 ms·

The problem with spreadsheets vs regular tables is that spreadsheets allow for a lot of customisation (which is kind of the point of a spreadsheet vs a table).

The problem with spreadsheets vs regular tables is that spreadsheets allow for a lot of customisation (which is kind of the point of a spreadsheet vs a table). As a programming interface, that makes spreadsheets deceptively powerful. But as a UI were you need to have control over how the user interacts, that makes spreadsheets incredibly painful to integrate. Source: myself. I worked on a project around 20 years ago which integrated a spreadsheet into its UI and the number of ways people would break the application each month was mind boggling.

xtracto 2y ago
The great thing about spreadsheets is that most grown ups understand them. I've used it as the best UI for Accountants, Lawyers and other people that are famous for being afraid of technology. It's a great "bridge between "the system" and the people who want to get something from it.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  I’m not disputing spreadsheets as an assessable IDE for “non-programmers”. I’m a big fan of spreadsheets for “getting shit done”. But if you’re building a UI for other people to consume, you’ll quickly find that they’d break it in all manner of exotic ways. This is why CRUD solutions exist. Sometimes you want the relational bookkeeping but with a more restricted UI. In those type of scenarios even MS Access is a better option than Excel (for example).
- bee_rider 2y ago
  If I were an accountant, I would be afraid of a lot of technology. In particular, if somebody offered me a Python code, and I didn’t know Python, I’d be quite worried about the handling of rounding and that sort of stuff, by some random programmer. Excel was also written by some random programmer. But the code that does anything complicated was at least used by everybody in my field, so if there’s a hidden bug in there, at least the responsibility is diffuse. And the code written by me or by someone at my office… well, you can at least see what every cell does.
  - grvdrm 2y ago
    You speak to me as an insurance guy that also writes code to get things done. Excel is everywhere. So - everyone has the same lens/bug. Also, rounding/numbers in SQL
bee_rider 2y ago
I wonder… there are all sorts of cloud offerings for office suites nowadays. Google, Microsoft. If you have a shared spreadsheet in one of these systems, surely there must be some way to lock down some rows and columns, right? Then, the spreadsheet simply becomes a program where intermediary values are displayed and can be read. It seems really convenient.
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  There are ways. But there’s also countless ways you can mess with the contents. Plus the problem that spreadsheet “administrators” need to unlock to make their changes and remember to re-enable those locks when they’re done. At some point, something invariably gets missed and someone else finds a way to tamper with it. Bear in mind that the “tamperers” are never doing so maliciously. They’re just trying to do their job too. But when you have a UI that allows for unlimited abstractions, those “tamperers” will dream up a new way to represent their needs without realising that they’re breaking someone else’s workflow.
johannes1234321 2y ago
There are a bunch of options for blocking cells from being edited etc. Excel pros (I am none) can do quite some nice tools on top of Excel. Excel runs the world ...
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  > There are a bunch of options for blocking cells from being edited etc. I’ve already addressed this and the problems with that approach. > Excel pros (I am none) can do quite some nice tools on top of Excel. As I explained in my OP, I was one of them. > Excel runs the world ... I agree. I never claimed otherwise. So I don’t really understand your point here if it’s not to make a strawman argument.

xtracto 2y ago

The great thing about spreadsheets is that most grown ups understand them. I've used it as the best UI for Accountants, Lawyers and other people that are famous for being afraid of technology. It's a great "bridge between "the system" and the people who want to get something from it.

hnlmorg 2y ago
I’m not disputing spreadsheets as an assessable IDE for “non-programmers”. I’m a big fan of spreadsheets for “getting shit done”. But if you’re building a UI for other people to consume, you’ll quickly find that they’d break it in all manner of exotic ways. This is why CRUD solutions exist. Sometimes you want the relational bookkeeping but with a more restricted UI. In those type of scenarios even MS Access is a better option than Excel (for example).
bee_rider 2y ago
If I were an accountant, I would be afraid of a lot of technology. In particular, if somebody offered me a Python code, and I didn’t know Python, I’d be quite worried about the handling of rounding and that sort of stuff, by some random programmer. Excel was also written by some random programmer. But the code that does anything complicated was at least used by everybody in my field, so if there’s a hidden bug in there, at least the responsibility is diffuse. And the code written by me or by someone at my office… well, you can at least see what every cell does.
- grvdrm 2y ago
  You speak to me as an insurance guy that also writes code to get things done. Excel is everywhere. So - everyone has the same lens/bug. Also, rounding/numbers in SQL

bee_rider 2y ago

I wonder… there are all sorts of cloud offerings for office suites nowadays. Google, Microsoft. If you have a shared spreadsheet in one of these systems, surely there must be some way to lock down some rows and columns, right? Then, the spreadsheet simply becomes a program where intermediary values are displayed and can be read. It seems really convenient.

hnlmorg 2y ago
There are ways. But there’s also countless ways you can mess with the contents. Plus the problem that spreadsheet “administrators” need to unlock to make their changes and remember to re-enable those locks when they’re done. At some point, something invariably gets missed and someone else finds a way to tamper with it. Bear in mind that the “tamperers” are never doing so maliciously. They’re just trying to do their job too. But when you have a UI that allows for unlimited abstractions, those “tamperers” will dream up a new way to represent their needs without realising that they’re breaking someone else’s workflow.

johannes1234321 2y ago

There are a bunch of options for blocking cells from being edited etc. Excel pros (I am none) can do quite some nice tools on top of Excel. Excel runs the world ...

hnlmorg 2y ago
> There are a bunch of options for blocking cells from being edited etc. I’ve already addressed this and the problems with that approach. > Excel pros (I am none) can do quite some nice tools on top of Excel. As I explained in my OP, I was one of them. > Excel runs the world ... I agree. I never claimed otherwise. So I don’t really understand your point here if it’s not to make a strawman argument.