4 ms·

This is the sentence I was looking for: > While we were able to use his evidence to make some change, both EFF and Mark were ultimately let down by Congress an

by kleiba 2y ago

This is the sentence I was looking for: > While we were able to use his evidence to make some change, both EFF and Mark were ultimately let down by Congress and the Courts, which have refused to take the steps necessary to end the mass spying even after Edward Snowden provided even more evidence of it in 2013. Do you have to be a cynic to pretty much have expected this?

fsflover 2y ago
Unfortunately this spying is exactly what all the government wants, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
- shadowgovt 2y ago
  It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship. Or a general anxiety about what "the other people" are doing that exceeds their anxiety about what the government can do with panopticon surveillance. I think, in general, hackers vastly overestimate the average human concern or sensitivity to this kind of thing.
  - gosub100 2y ago
    Victim blaming. "How dare you get victimized and not do more to stop it?"
    - shadowgovt 2y ago
      Victims have to be victimized first. Most surveilled Americans feel about as victimized as a well-kept dog.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    > deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate Which party is against spying? The only possible action is probably protesting. This doesn't work well, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy.... And spying is used against the protestors, too: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/spying-occupy https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/spying-occupy.
    - shadowgovt 2y ago
      > Which party is against spying? The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is part of the "apathy" category. People don't care enough to meet up on this issue. They don't even care enough to be members of the existing parties or do more than show up to elections (and then, only between half and three-quarters for President, less for Congress, and hovering around 10-20% for primaries). People care, but not enough to overcome institutional inertia.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        > The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is not the reason. The reason is the how the system was designed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
        shadowgovt 2y ago
        The Tea Party Republicans are a counter-example (or more accurately, a counterinsurgency). While there are still only two parties, one of them has become something that would be nearly unrecognizable to its members from the '70s. It is possible to organize within the party to bend it. But in general, one side of the aisle tends to seem to have difficulty with finding enough common ground to actually work as a bloc, while the other side has managed, impressively, to unify Christian fundamentalists and ultra-rich billionaires.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    > If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. Right now stuff is happening that does deeply bothers Americans, and what do they do? They walk around with signs, they file legal papers, and maybe some other forms of peaceful, albeit useless, protest... a lot of other countries truly would be burning down the government right now if something like Elon happened there, but so far America has just been saying they don't want it, in as many ways as possible, but while still continuing to fully let it happen.
    - fshr 2y ago
      Can you give an example of a country where you think the population would do something violent or upending if they had an Elon?
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        There are quite a few countries out there that don't just do peaceful protest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempts_since_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempt... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#2020s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#2020s In the US it's looking like the main aggressors are Trump supporters and most of everyone else is not actually out for blood, just Peacefully Unhappy. Elon is 100% out for blood, he's practically a modern-day Nazi. On many social media platforms you can see a lot of people from the UK, EU, etc. being totally bewildered that all the US is doing right now is useless peaceful protests. There are also a bunch of people potentially even from the US who post things like: https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1j822ah/cmv_most_protests_do_nothing_in_the_united_states/ https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1j822ah/cmv_m... Maybe eventually something will happen that changes things, or maybe eventually things will reach a tipping point, but right now at least they are still stuck in some peaceful protest limbo.
infinghxsg 2y ago
[dead]
7e 2y ago
No, you're not a cynic. The EFF takes exquisite pains to hide from you the fact that these programs spied on foreigners, which is the job of the NSA. Thus, they are necessary and proper, and perfectly legal. The EFF is a propaganda platform. You shouldn't take its claims at face value.
- showerst 2y ago
  Foriegners like the US citizen spouses and (ex)girlfriends of NSA employees? https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-on-spouses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14H/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/nsa-staff-used-spy-...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- nathas 2y ago
  [flagged]
- throw-qqqqq 2y ago
  Let’s not confuse the fact that they are only legally allowed to spy on foreigners, with what they actually do. I have no idea how you effectively filter mass wiretaps in fibre raw data and exclude americans. It’s impossible to not catch some/lots of domestic data as well..
- amiga386 2y ago
  Don't give us this "perfectly legal" crap. To remind you: the NSA killed off ThinThread (that explicitly took care to avoid wiretapping US citizens' data) in favour of Trailblazer, which grabs ALL data, ALL the time, including ALL US citizens' data. Their explicit intent was to break the law. They broke the law. Then Congress retroactively let them get away with it. They're still breaking the law today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinThread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinThread > The "change in priority" consisted of the decision made by the director of NSA General Michael V. Hayden to go with a concept called Trailblazer, despite the fact that ThinThread was a working prototype that claimed to protect the privacy of U.S. citizens. ThinThread was dismissed and replaced by the Trailblazer Project, which lacked the privacy protections
basisword 2y ago
How close are we to “bypassing” a lot of this spying when some of the most popular communications platforms (e.g. WhatsApp) are end to end encrypted? Will the tech eventually solve the problem in a convenient way, at least for those who care?
- kelipso 2y ago
  Really, the likelihood of all of them having backdoors is almost 100%.
- _aavaa_ 2y ago
  Not at all. They are one bill away (look at the UK). We cannot solve political problems by ignoring them and retreating into code.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Pegasus suggests no, and the UK already killed this with BlackBerry years ago.
- dcposch 2y ago
  WhatsApp is end-to-end-to-server encryption. They have a nicely implemented E2E protocol. This is operationally convenient: Meta can accurately say that they don't store WhatsApp messages, so fewer access requests go to them. And I'm sure it's nice for engineer morale, too. However, the app makes it semi-mandatory to turn on backups. If you say no, it keeps nagging you. If you always say no, you are in the 0.1% and everyone you talk to has backups enabled, so all of your conversations are helpfully backed up anyway, just not for you :) These backups go to Google Drive or iCloud. You can draw your own conclusions about who has access and who handles the LE/IC requests.

by kleiba 2y ago

fsflover 2y ago

Unfortunately this spying is exactly what all the government wants, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

shadowgovt 2y ago
It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship. Or a general anxiety about what "the other people" are doing that exceeds their anxiety about what the government can do with panopticon surveillance. I think, in general, hackers vastly overestimate the average human concern or sensitivity to this kind of thing.
- gosub100 2y ago
  Victim blaming. "How dare you get victimized and not do more to stop it?"
  - shadowgovt 2y ago
    Victims have to be victimized first. Most surveilled Americans feel about as victimized as a well-kept dog.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate Which party is against spying? The only possible action is probably protesting. This doesn't work well, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy.... And spying is used against the protestors, too: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/spying-occupy https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/spying-occupy.
  - shadowgovt 2y ago
    > Which party is against spying? The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is part of the "apathy" category. People don't care enough to meet up on this issue. They don't even care enough to be members of the existing parties or do more than show up to elections (and then, only between half and three-quarters for President, less for Congress, and hovering around 10-20% for primaries). People care, but not enough to overcome institutional inertia.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      > The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is not the reason. The reason is the how the system was designed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
      - shadowgovt 2y ago
        The Tea Party Republicans are a counter-example (or more accurately, a counterinsurgency). While there are still only two parties, one of them has become something that would be nearly unrecognizable to its members from the '70s. It is possible to organize within the party to bend it. But in general, one side of the aisle tends to seem to have difficulty with finding enough common ground to actually work as a bloc, while the other side has managed, impressively, to unify Christian fundamentalists and ultra-rich billionaires.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  > If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. Right now stuff is happening that does deeply bothers Americans, and what do they do? They walk around with signs, they file legal papers, and maybe some other forms of peaceful, albeit useless, protest... a lot of other countries truly would be burning down the government right now if something like Elon happened there, but so far America has just been saying they don't want it, in as many ways as possible, but while still continuing to fully let it happen.
  - fshr 2y ago
    Can you give an example of a country where you think the population would do something violent or upending if they had an Elon?
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      There are quite a few countries out there that don't just do peaceful protest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempts_since_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempt... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#2020s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#2020s In the US it's looking like the main aggressors are Trump supporters and most of everyone else is not actually out for blood, just Peacefully Unhappy. Elon is 100% out for blood, he's practically a modern-day Nazi. On many social media platforms you can see a lot of people from the UK, EU, etc. being totally bewildered that all the US is doing right now is useless peaceful protests. There are also a bunch of people potentially even from the US who post things like: https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1j822ah/cmv_most_protests_do_nothing_in_the_united_states/ https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1j822ah/cmv_m... Maybe eventually something will happen that changes things, or maybe eventually things will reach a tipping point, but right now at least they are still stuck in some peaceful protest limbo.

infinghxsg 2y ago

[dead]

7e 2y ago

No, you're not a cynic. The EFF takes exquisite pains to hide from you the fact that these programs spied on foreigners, which is the job of the NSA. Thus, they are necessary and proper, and perfectly legal. The EFF is a propaganda platform. You shouldn't take its claims at face value.

showerst 2y ago
Foriegners like the US citizen spouses and (ex)girlfriends of NSA employees? https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-on-spouses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14H/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/nsa-staff-used-spy-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
nathas 2y ago
[flagged]
throw-qqqqq 2y ago
Let’s not confuse the fact that they are only legally allowed to spy on foreigners, with what they actually do. I have no idea how you effectively filter mass wiretaps in fibre raw data and exclude americans. It’s impossible to not catch some/lots of domestic data as well..
amiga386 2y ago
Don't give us this "perfectly legal" crap. To remind you: the NSA killed off ThinThread (that explicitly took care to avoid wiretapping US citizens' data) in favour of Trailblazer, which grabs ALL data, ALL the time, including ALL US citizens' data. Their explicit intent was to break the law. They broke the law. Then Congress retroactively let them get away with it. They're still breaking the law today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinThread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinThread > The "change in priority" consisted of the decision made by the director of NSA General Michael V. Hayden to go with a concept called Trailblazer, despite the fact that ThinThread was a working prototype that claimed to protect the privacy of U.S. citizens. ThinThread was dismissed and replaced by the Trailblazer Project, which lacked the privacy protections

basisword 2y ago

How close are we to “bypassing” a lot of this spying when some of the most popular communications platforms (e.g. WhatsApp) are end to end encrypted? Will the tech eventually solve the problem in a convenient way, at least for those who care?

kelipso 2y ago
Really, the likelihood of all of them having backdoors is almost 100%.
_aavaa_ 2y ago
Not at all. They are one bill away (look at the UK). We cannot solve political problems by ignoring them and retreating into code.
Spooky23 2y ago
Pegasus suggests no, and the UK already killed this with BlackBerry years ago.
dcposch 2y ago
WhatsApp is end-to-end-to-server encryption. They have a nicely implemented E2E protocol. This is operationally convenient: Meta can accurately say that they don't store WhatsApp messages, so fewer access requests go to them. And I'm sure it's nice for engineer morale, too. However, the app makes it semi-mandatory to turn on backups. If you say no, it keeps nagging you. If you always say no, you are in the 0.1% and everyone you talk to has backups enabled, so all of your conversations are helpfully backed up anyway, just not for you :) These backups go to Google Drive or iCloud. You can draw your own conclusions about who has access and who handles the LE/IC requests.