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I'm losing my mind. This thread is already full of people sanewashing DOGE and Musk. I don't even know how to debate with them, because we seem to live on entir

I'm losing my mind. This thread is already full of people sanewashing DOGE and Musk. I don't even know how to debate with them, because we seem to live on entirely different conceptual planets.

roenxi 2y ago
> I don't even know how to debate with them, because we seem to live on entirely different conceptual planets. Typically the process is to exercise empathy, look into their world, see what it is like and then check for any logical problems or general weaknesses. If you want to debate with someone persuasively you have to meet them where they are.
- watwut 2y ago
  They don't care about logic and reason. We all know it. There are no stable moral or ethical values - transparency mayter then it don't depending on tactical needs. On emotional level, they like it when someone else is harmed. And that is it.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    > On emotional level, they like it when someone else is harmed. And that is it. On the other hand I recommend you work on improving your empathy even if you don't use it for debating. That is ridiculous and you don't have the excuse of an upcoming election to get away with bad behaviour. The pro-DOGE people generally want to pay less tax. That is a much better motivating theory. Will they get that? Probably not. But the emotional response (if any) is going to be much more on the greed or fairness aspects.
    - watwut 2y ago
      No, what you say is just what you want to be true. A comforting lie that is being repeated in various forms. Listen to what those people say, watch what they do. They literally say they want to cause harm. When their politicians gets insulting or cause harm, they get more votes instead of less. Instead of listening and watching, you knee jerk sanitize it, use euphemisms and basically gaslight everyone else. I do actually read and listen to what conservatives actually say and write. It is in project 2025. It is online. It is in conservative journals and articles. Talk to them in person long enough personally and they will tell you. It is the same thing with trade war. It is in Trumps rhetoric. And it was the same thing with abortions - it was totally paranoid to say they plan to remove protection for women ... until they actually did it. Again and again, their opinions and plans are sanitized and euphemized away. And then they get benefit of doubt no democrat or leftist is ever getting. There were enough low tax republican politicians who lost against Trump. When centrist democrats adopt republican plans, the previously cheered on plans are suddenly bad and republicans who keep supporting them are suddenly ennemies too. And the reason is that it is not the economics or taxes. --------------------------------------------- Also, speaking about empathy, why is there consistent expectation that empathy flows exactly one way? You are demanding that I am emphatetic to people who see empathy as weakness on an ideological level. And who are never ever asked to return the favor.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        > Also, speaking about empathy, why is there consistent expectation that empathy flows exactly one way? You are demanding that I am emphatetic to people who see empathy as weakness on an ideological level. And who are never ever asked to return the favor. You don't have to if you don't want to. I only bought it up because it'll probably help you feel good about life; it makes it easier to tolerate people who are disagreeable. You seem to be boxing with phantoms.
        watwut 2y ago
        The issue here is not really that someone is "disagreable". It is actual real world harm that goes on. > You seem to be boxing with phantoms. Not really. I am just listening to what the people we talk about say or do. You want me to pretend their motivations and ideologies are something they simply are not.
    - jfengel 2y ago
      Many of these actions are explicitly about culture wars, most visibly the actions against trans people. There is no way to explain that in terms of taxes. I can attempt empathy for their fear of trans people, but I don't know what to do with it. Their fear is inculcated by a vast propaganda machine, to which they are deeply wedded. Maybe over a few decades they will see that trans people simply aren't harming them, but it's not clear whether my empathy today will have any beneficial effect on that. Everything they call "woke" is about culture wars rather than taxes, and there's a lot in that category. There have been many, many calls for "understanding" their position in the culture war over the last few decades, but it has only gotten louder and more virulent. I think we may simply need to accept that we do understand them, but that what they want is simply unacceptable. That's an impasse, and it won't be resolved by empathy.
tpm 2y ago
Disordered discourse is a term Eliot Higgins is using to describe this and I like it. There is essentially no way out and they will take whole HN down with them I'm afraid. https://web-cdn.bsky.app/profile/eliothiggins.bsky.social/post/3ljbezuggwc2k https://web-cdn.bsky.app/profile/eliothiggins.bsky.social/po...
- sershe 2y ago
  Whole HN down? I don't even see all these off topic political flame wars you guys are having except when I feel particularly lazy and browse extra pages. Other than that my only interaction with them is to flag them. And I'm really grateful for other people flagging so I see less. The actual on topic hn content is not affected.
  - tpm 2y ago
    Funny thing is I had a hunch you might be lying and indeed looking at your history you are engaging only in political discussions.
    - sershe 2y ago
      Read my bio and look at timestamps. I lurk for tech news and discussions. Once every couple weeks I read, get sucked into, and comment on a political discussion. If I could wave a magic wand and ban posters of off topic political discussions off the internet forever so it doesn't happen, I would absolutely do it
      - tpm 2y ago
        There is a fascist revolution in the US and your primary concern is banning political discussions.
        sershe 2y ago
        Man it was really hard to not contradict you in detail and start discussing politics! Some people don't think it's so dramatic, let's leave it at that. Also there are tons of places online to discuss politics. Maybe too many! there's no need to make everything about politics. One way to turn people against your opinion is to shove it in their face when they don't want it.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]

I'm losing my mind. This thread is already full of people sanewashing DOGE and Musk. I don't even know how to debate with them, because we seem to live on entirely different conceptual planets.

roenxi 2y ago

> I don't even know how to debate with them, because we seem to live on entirely different conceptual planets. Typically the process is to exercise empathy, look into their world, see what it is like and then check for any logical problems or general weaknesses. If you want to debate with someone persuasively you have to meet them where they are.

watwut 2y ago
They don't care about logic and reason. We all know it. There are no stable moral or ethical values - transparency mayter then it don't depending on tactical needs. On emotional level, they like it when someone else is harmed. And that is it.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > On emotional level, they like it when someone else is harmed. And that is it. On the other hand I recommend you work on improving your empathy even if you don't use it for debating. That is ridiculous and you don't have the excuse of an upcoming election to get away with bad behaviour. The pro-DOGE people generally want to pay less tax. That is a much better motivating theory. Will they get that? Probably not. But the emotional response (if any) is going to be much more on the greed or fairness aspects.
  - watwut 2y ago
    No, what you say is just what you want to be true. A comforting lie that is being repeated in various forms. Listen to what those people say, watch what they do. They literally say they want to cause harm. When their politicians gets insulting or cause harm, they get more votes instead of less. Instead of listening and watching, you knee jerk sanitize it, use euphemisms and basically gaslight everyone else. I do actually read and listen to what conservatives actually say and write. It is in project 2025. It is online. It is in conservative journals and articles. Talk to them in person long enough personally and they will tell you. It is the same thing with trade war. It is in Trumps rhetoric. And it was the same thing with abortions - it was totally paranoid to say they plan to remove protection for women ... until they actually did it. Again and again, their opinions and plans are sanitized and euphemized away. And then they get benefit of doubt no democrat or leftist is ever getting. There were enough low tax republican politicians who lost against Trump. When centrist democrats adopt republican plans, the previously cheered on plans are suddenly bad and republicans who keep supporting them are suddenly ennemies too. And the reason is that it is not the economics or taxes. --------------------------------------------- Also, speaking about empathy, why is there consistent expectation that empathy flows exactly one way? You are demanding that I am emphatetic to people who see empathy as weakness on an ideological level. And who are never ever asked to return the favor.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      > Also, speaking about empathy, why is there consistent expectation that empathy flows exactly one way? You are demanding that I am emphatetic to people who see empathy as weakness on an ideological level. And who are never ever asked to return the favor. You don't have to if you don't want to. I only bought it up because it'll probably help you feel good about life; it makes it easier to tolerate people who are disagreeable. You seem to be boxing with phantoms.
      - watwut 2y ago
        The issue here is not really that someone is "disagreable". It is actual real world harm that goes on. > You seem to be boxing with phantoms. Not really. I am just listening to what the people we talk about say or do. You want me to pretend their motivations and ideologies are something they simply are not.
  - jfengel 2y ago
    Many of these actions are explicitly about culture wars, most visibly the actions against trans people. There is no way to explain that in terms of taxes. I can attempt empathy for their fear of trans people, but I don't know what to do with it. Their fear is inculcated by a vast propaganda machine, to which they are deeply wedded. Maybe over a few decades they will see that trans people simply aren't harming them, but it's not clear whether my empathy today will have any beneficial effect on that. Everything they call "woke" is about culture wars rather than taxes, and there's a lot in that category. There have been many, many calls for "understanding" their position in the culture war over the last few decades, but it has only gotten louder and more virulent. I think we may simply need to accept that we do understand them, but that what they want is simply unacceptable. That's an impasse, and it won't be resolved by empathy.

tpm 2y ago

Disordered discourse is a term Eliot Higgins is using to describe this and I like it. There is essentially no way out and they will take whole HN down with them I'm afraid. https://web-cdn.bsky.app/profile/eliothiggins.bsky.social/post/3ljbezuggwc2k https://web-cdn.bsky.app/profile/eliothiggins.bsky.social/po...

sershe 2y ago
Whole HN down? I don't even see all these off topic political flame wars you guys are having except when I feel particularly lazy and browse extra pages. Other than that my only interaction with them is to flag them. And I'm really grateful for other people flagging so I see less. The actual on topic hn content is not affected.
- tpm 2y ago
  Funny thing is I had a hunch you might be lying and indeed looking at your history you are engaging only in political discussions.
  - sershe 2y ago
    Read my bio and look at timestamps. I lurk for tech news and discussions. Once every couple weeks I read, get sucked into, and comment on a political discussion. If I could wave a magic wand and ban posters of off topic political discussions off the internet forever so it doesn't happen, I would absolutely do it
    - tpm 2y ago
      There is a fascist revolution in the US and your primary concern is banning political discussions.
      - sershe 2y ago
        Man it was really hard to not contradict you in detail and start discussing politics! Some people don't think it's so dramatic, let's leave it at that. Also there are tons of places online to discuss politics. Maybe too many! there's no need to make everything about politics. One way to turn people against your opinion is to shove it in their face when they don't want it.

aaron695 2y ago

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