3 ms·

I agree with your sentiment about what feminism is at its best but you're sugar coating the historical facts. 2nd wave feminism approaches gender roles as a ze

by s_baby 14y ago

I agree with your sentiment about what feminism is at its best but you're sugar coating the historical facts. 2nd wave feminism approaches gender roles as a zero sum game. They systematically marginalize any perspective on males that doesn't frame men as oppressors. Yes, there are authentic strands of feminism and yes they can be inclusive of the male perspective. But these strands also co-exist in the context of hateful ideologies. Worse, good feminists form in-group social cohesion with hateful zealots in the hope of "supporting their sisters". There's really no room for men in such a hostile environment.

rmc 14y ago
You sure about "2nd wave"? '2nd wave' feminism is usually for things like "It should be illegal to pay men and women differently for the same work", etc. Most of that battle has been won to most people. What's currently going on is sometimes called "3rd wave feminism". As for your theory that 'good feminists' stick with 'hateful zealots' in solidatory, that's not borne out by evidence. There is loads of infighting within all groups, including feminists. Some feminist groups are pro-prostitution and pro-pornography, some think pornography and prostitution should be banned. Some feminist groups welcome trans women, some ban them (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyns_Music_Festival http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyns_Music_Festival ). (This infighting isn't unique to feminism, it happens in lots of communities. Just look at why we have both 'Open Source' and 'Free Software' (i.e. a split))
- makomk 14y ago
  For the most part, even the feminist groups who welcome trans women are more accepting of feminists who consider trans women to be subhuman than they are of anyone who objects to those feminists. This is even true when, for example, the feminists in question have managed to get the law amended specifically so that the rape counselling services they run can turn away trans women who've been raped. The issues of prostitution and pornography are even more interesting - most of the sex-positive feminists who fought against those being banned are still involved in much the same kinds of sex-positive activism as they always were, but they're not doing it from within the feminist movement for some reason, whereas the feminists trying to get them banned are part of the feminist mainstream.
  - rmc 14y ago
    they're not doing it from within the feminist movement for some reason, whereas the feminists trying to get them banned are part of the feminist mainstream. You claim that the sex-positive people who you agree with don't call themselves feminists, but those that do things you don't like are called feminists, and hence it's OK to dislike all "feminists". Except that's not true. Example: "SlutWalks" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk ) are protests where people walk/march around in revelaing/slutty clothes to protest at people who blame rape victims for getting raped based on they dress. It started in Toronto. What do the organisers of this call themselves ( http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/about/who http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/about/who ): "Heather Jarvis is a queer feminist activist. … Laura McLean is a feminist who … Erika is a sex-positive feminist who … ". Sorry, but "feminism" can be pro-sex (or anti-sex or pro-porn or anti-porn, it's like trying to argue if GPL is less free or less free than BSD licence).

by s_baby 14y ago

rmc 14y ago

You sure about "2nd wave"? '2nd wave' feminism is usually for things like "It should be illegal to pay men and women differently for the same work", etc. Most of that battle has been won to most people. What's currently going on is sometimes called "3rd wave feminism". As for your theory that 'good feminists' stick with 'hateful zealots' in solidatory, that's not borne out by evidence. There is loads of infighting within all groups, including feminists. Some feminist groups are pro-prostitution and pro-pornography, some think pornography and prostitution should be banned. Some feminist groups welcome trans women, some ban them (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyns_Music_Festival http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyns_Music_Festival ). (This infighting isn't unique to feminism, it happens in lots of communities. Just look at why we have both 'Open Source' and 'Free Software' (i.e. a split))

makomk 14y ago
For the most part, even the feminist groups who welcome trans women are more accepting of feminists who consider trans women to be subhuman than they are of anyone who objects to those feminists. This is even true when, for example, the feminists in question have managed to get the law amended specifically so that the rape counselling services they run can turn away trans women who've been raped. The issues of prostitution and pornography are even more interesting - most of the sex-positive feminists who fought against those being banned are still involved in much the same kinds of sex-positive activism as they always were, but they're not doing it from within the feminist movement for some reason, whereas the feminists trying to get them banned are part of the feminist mainstream.
- rmc 14y ago
  they're not doing it from within the feminist movement for some reason, whereas the feminists trying to get them banned are part of the feminist mainstream. You claim that the sex-positive people who you agree with don't call themselves feminists, but those that do things you don't like are called feminists, and hence it's OK to dislike all "feminists". Except that's not true. Example: "SlutWalks" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk ) are protests where people walk/march around in revelaing/slutty clothes to protest at people who blame rape victims for getting raped based on they dress. It started in Toronto. What do the organisers of this call themselves ( http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/about/who http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/about/who ): "Heather Jarvis is a queer feminist activist. … Laura McLean is a feminist who … Erika is a sex-positive feminist who … ". Sorry, but "feminism" can be pro-sex (or anti-sex or pro-porn or anti-porn, it's like trying to argue if GPL is less free or less free than BSD licence).