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I've seen you make these kinds of comments before on other articles. Please stop. Not everyone is perfect and can forevermore avoid making any mistakes. I st

by kelnos 2y ago

I've seen you make these kinds of comments before on other articles. Please stop. Not everyone is perfect and can forevermore avoid making any mistakes. I strongly suspect your opinion of your skill here is overinflated. Even if it isn't, and you really are that good, everyone cannot be in the top 0.00001% of all programmers out there, so your suggestion to "simply" learn not to make mistakes is useless. This all just comes off incredibly arrogant, if I'm being honest.

BigJono 2y ago
You come off as incredibly arrogant too, you just don't realise it because you have the current mainstream opinion and the safety of a crowd. Do you know how fucking obnoxious it is when 200 people like you come into every thread to tell 10 C or Javascript developers that they can't be trusted with the languages and environments they've been using for decades? There are MILLIONS of successful projects across those two languages, far more than Rust or Typescript. Get a fucking grip.
- Klonoar 2y ago
  Nobody is telling JS developers that Rust will save them, chill.
  - pansa2 2y ago
    But you'll be called things like "catastrophically unprofessional" [1] if you choose JavaScript over TypeScript, or dynamically-typed Python over MyPy. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1iqytkf/python_type_hints_and_why_you_should_use_them/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1iqytkf/python_type...
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      He's right. That is catastrophically unprofessional in a professional environment.
  - calgoo 2y ago
    Well, not 100% true... With Rust being the principal language that compiles to webassembly, I'm sure there is quite a lot of JS code being re-written in Rust right now.
defrost 2y ago
He's not making a comment about everyone, it's a specific comment about how often long time C programmers make basic mistakes after a million SLOC or so. In this instance Walter is correct - the mistakes he listed are very rarely made by experienced C programmers, just as ballet dancers rarely trip over their own feet walking down a pavement. The problem of those errors being commonplace in those that are barely five years in to C coding and still have another five to go before hitting the ten year mark still exists, of course. But it's a fair point that given enough practice and pain those mistakes go away.
- gblargg 2y ago
  I'd imagine the main way one reduces instances of these mistakes is to restrict resource ownership into certain patterns which have a clear place for freeing, and rules that ensure it's always reached, and only once.
  - defrost 2y ago
    There are many approaches depending on the type of program or suite of programs being built. Always pairing the creation of free() code and functions with every malloc() is one discipline. Another, for a class of C utilities, is to never free() at all .. "compute anticipated resource limits early, malloc and open pipes in advance, process data stream and exit when done" works for a body of cases. In large C projects of times past it's often the case that resource management, string handling, etc are isolated and handled in dedicated sub sections that resemble the kinds of safe handling methods baked into modern 'safe' languges.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Right. Another one, small but effective, is to put an overflow check on the calculation of the size to pass to malloc(). And another - always use size_t for anything that is used as an index.
- red75prime 2y ago
  > just as ballet dancers rarely trip over their own feet walking down a pavement What about about walking down a busy construction site? The most charitable and correct interpretation I can think of is "I'm a professional. Seatbelts and OSHA destroy my productivity."
otterley 2y ago
I think a more charitable interpretation of what he said was, "after sufficient practice, I became good enough to start avoiding those pitfalls." It's not all that different from learning any challenging task. I can't skateboard to save my life, but the fact that people can do it well is both admirable and the result of hundreds or thousands of hours of practice. Skilled people can sometimes forget how long it took to learn their talent, and can occasionally come off as though the act is easy as a result. Don't take it too harshly.
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > after sufficient practice, I became good enough to start avoiding those pitfalls. You can only do that in code you control. You can not control the entire call stack of your functions in cooperative environments.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > You can not control the entire call stack of your functions in cooperative environments. That's true. But I try by doing code reviews, and I try to lead the team by example and suggestion.
    - selfmodruntime 2y ago
      Examples and suggestions don't transmit your years of experience of pitfall-avoidance. You say you "try" to do code reviews, which is honorable, but also proves that there is code in your codebase that you can not and do not control, and which likely features unsafeness. This is fair enough, we can't do all the work as maintainers after all. When I `git blame` segfaults in the D compiler repository, the aforementioned assumption -- that you can't control faults introduced by someone else -- seems to be largely true. We do use Go/Rust at work (albeit an easier flavor of it), because I don't trust my juniors.
- int_19h 2y ago
  And, given who OP is, "sufficient practice" here translates to "has been writing compilers in C++ for 4 decades".
milesrout 2y ago
Surely it is better than yet another self-promoting mention of his programming language on every unrelated C, Rust or Zig post?
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Every post on D attracts C, Rust, and Zig replies :-) Feel free to downvote any and all posts I make.
WalterBright 2y ago
> This all just comes off incredibly arrogant I know, but it's the truth. Consider another case. I worked in a machine shop in college trying to make my steam engine. The man who ran the shop, was kind enough to show me how to operate the machines. Those machines were like C, built during WW2. They had no user friendly features. The milling machine was a particular nightmare. It was festooned with levers and gears and wheels to control every aspect. There was no logic to the "user interface". Nothing was labeled. The worst one was a random lever that would reverse the operation of all the other levers. My terror was wrecking the machine by feeding the tool mount into the cutting bit. I would make a part, and it would come out awful - things like the surface finish was a mess. If he had some time, he'd come over and help me. He'd turn a wheel, "ting" the blade on a grinding wheel, adjust the feed, and make a perfect part (all by eyeball, I might add). The man was just incredible with those machines. I was just in awe. He never made a mistake. Have you ever tried to get a part centered properly in a 4-jaw chuck? Not me. He could on the first try every time. But he'd been doing it every day for 40 years.

by kelnos 2y ago

BigJono 2y ago

You come off as incredibly arrogant too, you just don't realise it because you have the current mainstream opinion and the safety of a crowd. Do you know how fucking obnoxious it is when 200 people like you come into every thread to tell 10 C or Javascript developers that they can't be trusted with the languages and environments they've been using for decades? There are MILLIONS of successful projects across those two languages, far more than Rust or Typescript. Get a fucking grip.

Klonoar 2y ago
Nobody is telling JS developers that Rust will save them, chill.
- pansa2 2y ago
  But you'll be called things like "catastrophically unprofessional" [1] if you choose JavaScript over TypeScript, or dynamically-typed Python over MyPy. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1iqytkf/python_type_hints_and_why_you_should_use_them/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/1iqytkf/python_type...
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    He's right. That is catastrophically unprofessional in a professional environment.
- calgoo 2y ago
  Well, not 100% true... With Rust being the principal language that compiles to webassembly, I'm sure there is quite a lot of JS code being re-written in Rust right now.

defrost 2y ago

He's not making a comment about everyone, it's a specific comment about how often long time C programmers make basic mistakes after a million SLOC or so. In this instance Walter is correct - the mistakes he listed are very rarely made by experienced C programmers, just as ballet dancers rarely trip over their own feet walking down a pavement. The problem of those errors being commonplace in those that are barely five years in to C coding and still have another five to go before hitting the ten year mark still exists, of course. But it's a fair point that given enough practice and pain those mistakes go away.

gblargg 2y ago
I'd imagine the main way one reduces instances of these mistakes is to restrict resource ownership into certain patterns which have a clear place for freeing, and rules that ensure it's always reached, and only once.
- defrost 2y ago
  There are many approaches depending on the type of program or suite of programs being built. Always pairing the creation of free() code and functions with every malloc() is one discipline. Another, for a class of C utilities, is to never free() at all .. "compute anticipated resource limits early, malloc and open pipes in advance, process data stream and exit when done" works for a body of cases. In large C projects of times past it's often the case that resource management, string handling, etc are isolated and handled in dedicated sub sections that resemble the kinds of safe handling methods baked into modern 'safe' languges.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Right. Another one, small but effective, is to put an overflow check on the calculation of the size to pass to malloc(). And another - always use size_t for anything that is used as an index.
red75prime 2y ago
> just as ballet dancers rarely trip over their own feet walking down a pavement What about about walking down a busy construction site? The most charitable and correct interpretation I can think of is "I'm a professional. Seatbelts and OSHA destroy my productivity."

otterley 2y ago

I think a more charitable interpretation of what he said was, "after sufficient practice, I became good enough to start avoiding those pitfalls." It's not all that different from learning any challenging task. I can't skateboard to save my life, but the fact that people can do it well is both admirable and the result of hundreds or thousands of hours of practice. Skilled people can sometimes forget how long it took to learn their talent, and can occasionally come off as though the act is easy as a result. Don't take it too harshly.

selfmodruntime 2y ago
> after sufficient practice, I became good enough to start avoiding those pitfalls. You can only do that in code you control. You can not control the entire call stack of your functions in cooperative environments.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > You can not control the entire call stack of your functions in cooperative environments. That's true. But I try by doing code reviews, and I try to lead the team by example and suggestion.
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    Examples and suggestions don't transmit your years of experience of pitfall-avoidance. You say you "try" to do code reviews, which is honorable, but also proves that there is code in your codebase that you can not and do not control, and which likely features unsafeness. This is fair enough, we can't do all the work as maintainers after all. When I `git blame` segfaults in the D compiler repository, the aforementioned assumption -- that you can't control faults introduced by someone else -- seems to be largely true. We do use Go/Rust at work (albeit an easier flavor of it), because I don't trust my juniors.
int_19h 2y ago
And, given who OP is, "sufficient practice" here translates to "has been writing compilers in C++ for 4 decades".

milesrout 2y ago

Surely it is better than yet another self-promoting mention of his programming language on every unrelated C, Rust or Zig post?

WalterBright 2y ago
Every post on D attracts C, Rust, and Zig replies :-) Feel free to downvote any and all posts I make.

WalterBright 2y ago

> This all just comes off incredibly arrogant I know, but it's the truth. Consider another case. I worked in a machine shop in college trying to make my steam engine. The man who ran the shop, was kind enough to show me how to operate the machines. Those machines were like C, built during WW2. They had no user friendly features. The milling machine was a particular nightmare. It was festooned with levers and gears and wheels to control every aspect. There was no logic to the "user interface". Nothing was labeled. The worst one was a random lever that would reverse the operation of all the other levers. My terror was wrecking the machine by feeding the tool mount into the cutting bit. I would make a part, and it would come out awful - things like the surface finish was a mess. If he had some time, he'd come over and help me. He'd turn a wheel, "ting" the blade on a grinding wheel, adjust the feed, and make a perfect part (all by eyeball, I might add). The man was just incredible with those machines. I was just in awe. He never made a mistake. Have you ever tried to get a part centered properly in a 4-jaw chuck? Not me. He could on the first try every time. But he'd been doing it every day for 40 years.