4 ms·

Not to run off on a tangent, but you're wrong about the dairy beef comparison. Before heading to a feedlot, most beef cattle spend around a year of their lives

Not to run off on a tangent, but you're wrong about the dairy beef comparison. Before heading to a feedlot, most beef cattle spend around a year of their lives grazing often allowed to stay with their mothers. Beef cattle are killed much sooner, but have something resembling a natural life for a time. Newborn dairy calves are removed almost immediately so no milk is wasted on them. Male dairy cows are used for veal (and I'm sure you know how that goes). The females are placed into small "igloos" with no chance for grazing or physical contact until they are old enough to reproduce. Then it's 4 or 5 years of constant pregnancy and milking until they are "spent" at the ripe ole age of 6. I'm honestly not trying to be preachy here as I know this isn't the appropriate venue, but this is just not an area I feel anyone should be commending for their efficiency.

randomdata 14y ago
I grew up on a dairy farm, and while I'm sure some farmers operate exactly as you describe, I'm not sure you should paint the whole industry with one brush. Every farmer has their own opinions on how their operation should be operated, so every farm will be vastly different. > They are kept on a stream of antibiotics This was never true on our farm. Cows would be treated if sick, but that is it. I don't even remember them being sick all that often. The biggest problems were always related to calving complications (see below). > They often develop mastitis This largely came down to choices made by the animal, like laying in the muck even when there's a nice fresh bed of straw nearby. No farmer wants to see a cow with mastitis, even if just for profit reasons so you always do your best to try to avoid the problem. > The females are placed into small "igloos" with no chance for grazing or physical contact until they are old enough to reproduce. You mean until they are old enough to feed on their own. The reason they are individualized in early life is because otherwise the stronger calves will eat all of the food and who wants to see a calf starve? Even while in the hutch ("igloo"), the calves are free to interact with the nearby calves in other hutches. > Male dairy cows are used for veal (and I'm sure you know how that goes). I'm not sure the general population does know how that goes. I've heard all kinds of horrific stories about how veal calves, specifically, are mistreated. The only differentiator for veal is the age of the animal, otherwise they live like any other beef calf. > Then it's 4 or 5 years of constant pregnancy and milking until they are "spent" at the ripe ole age of 6. I remember plenty of cows that were milked for far longer, but we definitely lost a lot during calving, and as a result of that 4-5 years probably isn't far off the average milking span. Sadly, calving is hard on the animal. To be fair, this is something humans equally struggled with until the advent of modern medicine.
- Falling3 14y ago
  And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be. Your family may have been a step ahead most of today's farms, but I still take issue with several of your points. >You mean until they are old enough to feed on their own. The reason they are individualized in early life is because otherwise the stronger calves will eat all of the food and who wants to see a calf starve? Even while in the hutch ("igloo"), the calves are free to interact with the nearby calves in other hutches. No I don't. The only reason that would be an issue is if they are not drinking milk naturally from the mother. All across the Midwest are small and medium sized cattle ranches with calves of all ages getting on just fine. The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money. And I honestly have not seen a single case where calves are free to interact with each other. They're either tied up or fenced in. >I'm not sure the general population does know how that goes. I've heard all kinds of horrific stories about how veal calves, specifically, are mistreated. The only differentiator for veal is the age of the animal, otherwise they live like any other beef calf. I'm actually surprised you said this because it's 100% wrong. Veal in the US is almost exclusively the male offspring of dairy cows - usually Holsteins. They are never beef breeds and their lives are extremely different. In order to get the tender meat, they are put on a formula deficient in Iron and either tied up or kept in small crates, which I have witnessed many times. This combination produces the light, tender meat veal is known for. I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm. >Sadly, calving is hard on the animal. To be fair, this is something humans equally struggled with until the advent of modern medicine. It sure is. It's a tremendous amount of stress to put on a female's body. That's the issue.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    > And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be. Indeed. We poured a lot of money into improving the lives of the animals through the years. Things are definitely better than it used to be for the animals. The conditions in some of these modern barns are worlds ahead of the past. Are all things perfect? Probably not, but it is a process. > The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money. I do not deny that the calf is separated from the mother, but that is quite different to being individually penned up for years as you claimed. I don't know of any dairy farmer who keeps the calves individualized beyond the first month or so. > I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm. The veal we raised, once they were weaned from the milk, ate mainly grasses, and corn in their final days. The same diet we fed the beef cattle. The only real difference being that they went to market as a smaller animal. If you missed that window, they got sent to market as regular beef cattle. There is milk-fed veal that you speak of too, but it seems to be less common in my experience. I know that some farmers do kept them tied up in small crates, but you're painting a whole industry with a small brush again. One abusive farmer doesn't mean that all farmers are abusive. For what it is worth, I'm in Canada. Maybe the US has stricter definitions about what constitutes as veal, I don't know. I will amend that Canada has supply management for dairy. American dairy farmers are, on the whole, far less wealthy. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy comes into play? I imagine if you cannot make ends meet, the animals will suffer. I really don't see things being nearly as bad as you make it out to be here though.

randomdata 14y ago

I grew up on a dairy farm, and while I'm sure some farmers operate exactly as you describe, I'm not sure you should paint the whole industry with one brush. Every farmer has their own opinions on how their operation should be operated, so every farm will be vastly different. > They are kept on a stream of antibiotics This was never true on our farm. Cows would be treated if sick, but that is it. I don't even remember them being sick all that often. The biggest problems were always related to calving complications (see below). > They often develop mastitis This largely came down to choices made by the animal, like laying in the muck even when there's a nice fresh bed of straw nearby. No farmer wants to see a cow with mastitis, even if just for profit reasons so you always do your best to try to avoid the problem. > The females are placed into small "igloos" with no chance for grazing or physical contact until they are old enough to reproduce. You mean until they are old enough to feed on their own. The reason they are individualized in early life is because otherwise the stronger calves will eat all of the food and who wants to see a calf starve? Even while in the hutch ("igloo"), the calves are free to interact with the nearby calves in other hutches. > Male dairy cows are used for veal (and I'm sure you know how that goes). I'm not sure the general population does know how that goes. I've heard all kinds of horrific stories about how veal calves, specifically, are mistreated. The only differentiator for veal is the age of the animal, otherwise they live like any other beef calf. > Then it's 4 or 5 years of constant pregnancy and milking until they are "spent" at the ripe ole age of 6. I remember plenty of cows that were milked for far longer, but we definitely lost a lot during calving, and as a result of that 4-5 years probably isn't far off the average milking span. Sadly, calving is hard on the animal. To be fair, this is something humans equally struggled with until the advent of modern medicine.

Falling3 14y ago
And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be. Your family may have been a step ahead most of today's farms, but I still take issue with several of your points. >You mean until they are old enough to feed on their own. The reason they are individualized in early life is because otherwise the stronger calves will eat all of the food and who wants to see a calf starve? Even while in the hutch ("igloo"), the calves are free to interact with the nearby calves in other hutches. No I don't. The only reason that would be an issue is if they are not drinking milk naturally from the mother. All across the Midwest are small and medium sized cattle ranches with calves of all ages getting on just fine. The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money. And I honestly have not seen a single case where calves are free to interact with each other. They're either tied up or fenced in. >I'm not sure the general population does know how that goes. I've heard all kinds of horrific stories about how veal calves, specifically, are mistreated. The only differentiator for veal is the age of the animal, otherwise they live like any other beef calf. I'm actually surprised you said this because it's 100% wrong. Veal in the US is almost exclusively the male offspring of dairy cows - usually Holsteins. They are never beef breeds and their lives are extremely different. In order to get the tender meat, they are put on a formula deficient in Iron and either tied up or kept in small crates, which I have witnessed many times. This combination produces the light, tender meat veal is known for. I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm. >Sadly, calving is hard on the animal. To be fair, this is something humans equally struggled with until the advent of modern medicine. It sure is. It's a tremendous amount of stress to put on a female's body. That's the issue.
- randomdata 14y ago
  > And you may be aware that the family farm of previous generations is not what it used to be. Indeed. We poured a lot of money into improving the lives of the animals through the years. Things are definitely better than it used to be for the animals. The conditions in some of these modern barns are worlds ahead of the past. Are all things perfect? Probably not, but it is a process. > The biggest reason is they must be separated from the mother otherwise the farmer is losing money. I do not deny that the calf is separated from the mother, but that is quite different to being individually penned up for years as you claimed. I don't know of any dairy farmer who keeps the calves individualized beyond the first month or so. > I have a very hard time accepting you didn't know any of this having grown up on a dairy farm. The veal we raised, once they were weaned from the milk, ate mainly grasses, and corn in their final days. The same diet we fed the beef cattle. The only real difference being that they went to market as a smaller animal. If you missed that window, they got sent to market as regular beef cattle. There is milk-fed veal that you speak of too, but it seems to be less common in my experience. I know that some farmers do kept them tied up in small crates, but you're painting a whole industry with a small brush again. One abusive farmer doesn't mean that all farmers are abusive. For what it is worth, I'm in Canada. Maybe the US has stricter definitions about what constitutes as veal, I don't know. I will amend that Canada has supply management for dairy. American dairy farmers are, on the whole, far less wealthy. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy comes into play? I imagine if you cannot make ends meet, the animals will suffer. I really don't see things being nearly as bad as you make it out to be here though.