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Likewise, Manning got pardoned when her release was clearly messier and less targeted than Snowden’s. There isn’t much logic to these things. To be clear, all

Likewise, Manning got pardoned when her release was clearly messier and less targeted than Snowden’s. There isn’t much logic to these things. To be clear, all 3 are personal heroes of mine.

psunavy03 2y ago
[flagged]
- booleandilemma 2y ago
  What do you think would have happened to Snowden had he stayed on American soil?
  - adastra22 2y ago
    Treason has the death penalty.
  - orthecreedence 2y ago
    He would have had a fair trial which would ultimately result in the dismantling of the entire US surveillance apparatus and would usher in the birth of the internet the forefathers intended.
- anonym29 2y ago
  [flagged]
- ifyoubuildit 2y ago
  Can you really not think of any (charitable) reasons?
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  If Snowden was such a hero, why did he take Russian citizenship What choice did he have? Do you think he'd receive a fair trial if he came back to the US? and not oppose the invasion of Ukraine? Did he actively support it? I hadn't heard that. Major bummer, if so. Otherwise, he didn't oppose it for the same reason very few other Russians opposed it. I'm sure the reason will occur to you if you think hard enough.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    > What choice did he have? Do you think he'd receive a fair trial if he came back to the US? Of course he would. We're in a thread about Mark Klein, who was treated fairly by the law.
  - ajross 2y ago
    Upthread, we have: > Thank goodness he [was more willing to betray his position for moral reasons] than the "I was just following orders" crowd. We know from WW2 that "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse to help facilitate grave atrocities, Which dilutes to this when challenged: > he didn't oppose [the invation of Ukraine] for the same reason very few other Russians opposed it. Those perspectives both can't be correct! If he was willing to face jail and expulsion for opposing US crimes, and to be celebrated for that, surely the same logic should hold for Russian crimes, no? Snowden is complicated for sure. I think it's not unreasonable to ask why these decisions were different and to at least ask what differences he might have in loyalties and personal aims might lead to them.
    - adastra22 2y ago
      He has never expressed himself to be anything other than a patriotic American. Why would he be putting his life on the line for a country that he does not identify with? People who do that ti support just cause like Ukraine have my respect. But I wouldn’t expect if of anyone.
      - ajross 2y ago
        > Why would he be putting his life on the line for a country that he does not identify with? Edward Joseph Snowden is literally a Russian citizen!
        adastra22 2y ago
        Because he was effectively stateless, and that was the only option available. Context matters..
- perching_aix 2y ago
  In a parallel universe there must be a world where those choices of his serve as a reminder that the world, and the people within it, are not nearly as simple and convenient as narratives and principles would suggest. Let's think it through. Say you're pretty passionately pissed off about what you directly observe (in this case spying), so you go full hero and do what he did. Then consequences come and the only lifeline you're given is... Russian. You tasted the reality for a bit there, that was rough, but luckily you're safe and out. But wait, now you're being compelled into becoming an asset. And no lifelines are around anymore. Suddenly you realize that the reality of the stronger dog fucking never disappeared, and that choice you made was much more grave than you thought, and there's no real going back. And it doesn't matter if this is what actually happened to Snowden, what matters is that this is a very reasonable possibility. People are not fairy tales, and especially not perfectly consistent in their thoughts and beliefs. Not spatially, not temporally. He may have at some point thought that doing the noble thing was his choice, but wouldn't now. He may have been swayed in other ways since, and now takes both stances at the same time, regardless how contradictory they are. The real lie here is treating people larger than life. One can appreciate a result without subscribing to everything the person ever did or does, or labelling them one way or another.
- deciplex 2y ago
  Probably because the US empire had deteriorated enough by that point that revoking passports for exposing the blatant lies and crimes of our government was on the table by then. Of course, it's different these days. These days they'd just kill Snowden. And Mark Klein, for that matter.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > These days they'd just kill Snowden. I thought they call it suicide. /s

Likewise, Manning got pardoned when her release was clearly messier and less targeted than Snowden’s. There isn’t much logic to these things. To be clear, all 3 are personal heroes of mine.

psunavy03 2y ago

[flagged]

booleandilemma 2y ago
What do you think would have happened to Snowden had he stayed on American soil?
- adastra22 2y ago
  Treason has the death penalty.
- orthecreedence 2y ago
  He would have had a fair trial which would ultimately result in the dismantling of the entire US surveillance apparatus and would usher in the birth of the internet the forefathers intended.
anonym29 2y ago
[flagged]
ifyoubuildit 2y ago
Can you really not think of any (charitable) reasons?
CamperBob2 2y ago
If Snowden was such a hero, why did he take Russian citizenship What choice did he have? Do you think he'd receive a fair trial if he came back to the US? and not oppose the invasion of Ukraine? Did he actively support it? I hadn't heard that. Major bummer, if so. Otherwise, he didn't oppose it for the same reason very few other Russians opposed it. I'm sure the reason will occur to you if you think hard enough.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  > What choice did he have? Do you think he'd receive a fair trial if he came back to the US? Of course he would. We're in a thread about Mark Klein, who was treated fairly by the law.
- ajross 2y ago
  Upthread, we have: > Thank goodness he [was more willing to betray his position for moral reasons] than the "I was just following orders" crowd. We know from WW2 that "I was just following orders" is not a legitimate excuse to help facilitate grave atrocities, Which dilutes to this when challenged: > he didn't oppose [the invation of Ukraine] for the same reason very few other Russians opposed it. Those perspectives both can't be correct! If he was willing to face jail and expulsion for opposing US crimes, and to be celebrated for that, surely the same logic should hold for Russian crimes, no? Snowden is complicated for sure. I think it's not unreasonable to ask why these decisions were different and to at least ask what differences he might have in loyalties and personal aims might lead to them.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    He has never expressed himself to be anything other than a patriotic American. Why would he be putting his life on the line for a country that he does not identify with? People who do that ti support just cause like Ukraine have my respect. But I wouldn’t expect if of anyone.
    - ajross 2y ago
      > Why would he be putting his life on the line for a country that he does not identify with? Edward Joseph Snowden is literally a Russian citizen!
      - adastra22 2y ago
        Because he was effectively stateless, and that was the only option available. Context matters..
perching_aix 2y ago
In a parallel universe there must be a world where those choices of his serve as a reminder that the world, and the people within it, are not nearly as simple and convenient as narratives and principles would suggest. Let's think it through. Say you're pretty passionately pissed off about what you directly observe (in this case spying), so you go full hero and do what he did. Then consequences come and the only lifeline you're given is... Russian. You tasted the reality for a bit there, that was rough, but luckily you're safe and out. But wait, now you're being compelled into becoming an asset. And no lifelines are around anymore. Suddenly you realize that the reality of the stronger dog fucking never disappeared, and that choice you made was much more grave than you thought, and there's no real going back. And it doesn't matter if this is what actually happened to Snowden, what matters is that this is a very reasonable possibility. People are not fairy tales, and especially not perfectly consistent in their thoughts and beliefs. Not spatially, not temporally. He may have at some point thought that doing the noble thing was his choice, but wouldn't now. He may have been swayed in other ways since, and now takes both stances at the same time, regardless how contradictory they are. The real lie here is treating people larger than life. One can appreciate a result without subscribing to everything the person ever did or does, or labelling them one way or another.
deciplex 2y ago
Probably because the US empire had deteriorated enough by that point that revoking passports for exposing the blatant lies and crimes of our government was on the table by then. Of course, it's different these days. These days they'd just kill Snowden. And Mark Klein, for that matter.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > These days they'd just kill Snowden. I thought they call it suicide. /s