5 ms·

"We can not both live balanced lives and keep the prestige and power we are used to." Isn't that a double edged sword? That prestige and power is an attraction

by colmvp 14y ago

"We can not both live balanced lives and keep the prestige and power we are used to." Isn't that a double edged sword? That prestige and power is an attraction and sometimes necessity for men to court women. While I know it does happen, it's rare to find women who marry 'down' in the status ladder (be it race, income, or position). And as a marginalized male minority in the U.S., I know for certain that even good well-adjusted women wouldn't have given me the time of day if I wasn't earning a certain amount or at a high level or at a great company.

roguecoder 14y ago
I think your generalizations are ridiculously broad here. Some women are golddiggers, but those relationships are, IMHO, not worth having anyway. Why do you think such a relationship is going to contribute more to your life than spending time on things that actually make you happy? Even if all women wanted was power, we are playing a zero-sum, I-got-mine, race-to-the-bottom, everyone-loses game if we demand total devotion to status, and I don't think most women want that either. Already 25% of stay-at-home parents are men. The majority of women are now in the work force. Egalitarian marriages last longer. Things are changing, and we can help them change faster by opting out of that self-destructive game. That doesn't mean giving up on being able to find a romantic relationship, however. There is a difference between being a bum and not seeking to dominate the people around us to get ahead at all cost. I'd recommend reading http://postmasculine.com/ http://postmasculine.com/ for the dating advice that worked best for me. Much like weight loss, there are no short cuts to becoming capable of having satisfying relationships. It is hard work to move from desperation to a place where relationships are one possible way your life could be a bit nicer, but certainly not the only one. On the other hand, I found it worth the energy.
- sanxiyn 14y ago
  Some women are golddiggers, but more importantly, all women, as a rule, have golddigging tendency. (There are exceptions, but I am talking of a rule.) This is very well established by now. I recommend reading David Buss's textbook, Evolutionary Psychology, 4th edition. In particular, Women's Long Term Mating Strategies, where the first heading is Preference for Economic Resources. Women consistently rate importance of economic resources in partner twice(!) higher than men. This is consistent from 1930 to today, and does not change whether most women are in the work force or not. As a textbook, it has lots of references you can check yourself.
  - paulhauggis 14y ago
    "Some women are golddiggers, but more importantly, all women, as a rule, have golddigging tendency." Exactly. Women want a man that can provide (this is usually achieved through money and power). Just like men want a woman that's attractive. I don't know why people want to go against human nature or try to pretend that it's a bad thing or it doesn't exist.
    - makomk 14y ago
      Not everyone thinks it's human nature. In fact, there's no real reason why we should think that it's human nature rather than (say) a purely social phenomenon that's entirely learnt, and can therefore be changed.
      - crusso 14y ago
        there's no real reason why we should think that it's human nature rather than (say) a purely social phenomenon No reasons except that we already know from separated twin studies that genetics plays a strong role in behavioral traits. Then also as you look at other places in the animal kingdom where learned behavior takes a greatly reduced role to wired/instinctive behavior we see many analogues. Birds provide many examples whereby the male must demonstrate his ability to provide an environment, sustenance, and protection for potential mates. Some male birds build their nests that the females examine before choosing a mate. Other birds demonstrate athletic abilities through dance. Saying that it's just as likely that male/female behaviors are learnt as they are inborn is akin to saying that it's just as likely that having a womb to give birth with is just as likely learnt as inborn.
        makomk 14y ago
        Male birds also wear and display decorative plumage in order to attract mates, whereas female birds tend to be more drap. Obviously it's natural for men to look and dress prettily in order to demonstrate their attractiveness to women, who as the ones being wooed don't need to put in the same kind of effort. It's funny how selective our analogies to nature are sometimes.
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  > Egalitarian marriages last longer. Do you have any data for that, or even a rigorous definition of an "egalitarian marriage?"
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    The definition of egalitarian marriage is either division of household labor (reduces probability of divorce for women: http://jfi.sagepub.com/content/24/1/51.short http://jfi.sagepub.com/content/24/1/51.short), predominantly equal contributions of income (no effect on divorce relative to men earning more, decreases probability relative to women earning more: http://www.addegem-asso.fr/docs/PapersDMM2009/7.pdf http://www.addegem-asso.fr/docs/PapersDMM2009/7.pdf) and egalitarian gender roles (lowers probability of divorce when held by men: http://books.google.com/books?id=Yv8KZnvVbTsC&lpg=PA225&ots=OgvNsREYvj&dq=Do%20gender%20role%20attitudes%20matter%3F%20Family%20formation%20and%20dissolution%20among%20traditional%20and%20egalitarian%20men%20and%20women&lr&pg=PA225#v=onepage&q=Do%20gender%20role%20attitudes%20matter?%20Family%20formation%20and%20dissolution%20among%20traditional%20and%20egalitarian%20men%20and%20women&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Yv8KZnvVbTsC&lpg=PA225&... )
- colmvp 14y ago
  I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not insinuating that women are generally gold-diggers. I'm saying that ultimately status and income are considerations that come into play when it comes to the mating game. Physical attractiveness aside, a male doctor or male CEO is going to attract more interest than a male barista by virtue of his occupation and income. Income and wealth for men is a sometimes a consideration not different from height. Let's put it another way: A minority male in the U.S. like an Asian male who earns a certain amount above the average is going to have significantly a lot more choices in interracial pairings than if he were at a low paying job. Statistics show that Caucasians females rarely marry Asians in the United States, but when they do, that pairing has the highest median income level compared to every other pairing in the U.S., including Caucasian/Caucasian and Asian/Asian. Anecdotally, all the Asian men I know who married Caucasian female are well-paid relative to the average Asian American male.
  - cwb71 14y ago
    > Physical attractiveness aside, a male doctor or male CEO is going to attract more interest than a male barista by virtue of his occupation and income. You clearly do not live in San Francisco.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    My argument is this: so what? You say these things like marriage, and in your case interracial marriage, is the be-all and end-all of happiness. I argue that it isn't, and all research directly correlating income and happiness finds that it tops out around $67k. If you sacrifice happiness for marriage, and get a crappier marriage than you would otherwise have in the bargin, what is the point?
    - akldfgj 14y ago
      > $67k. Not in Silicon Valley. In Ohio, maybe.
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  >Egalitarian marriages last longer. Second the call for a rationale for this. In fact, I would wager that the opposite is true.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    Citations provided below. While I've seen no causal evidence, the best hypothesis is that it is the result of perceived fairness, social connection to the partner or a side effect of people with egalitarian beliefs only get married when they really want to, rather than out of a sense of necessity.
freshhawk 14y ago
Actually I remember reading [1] that since the recent economic downturn, because it affected men much more than women, more women are marrying "down" than are marrying "up". I agree that our societal norms haven't caught up with the fact that there are no longer enough high status men and low status women for all the women to marry up anymore, so the social pressure is still there but it seems to be changing fairly quickly. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/08/marriage-and-class-study http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/08/marriage-and-c...
- itmag 14y ago
  high status men and low status women Do I detect a roissysphere shibboleth? :)
  - freshhawk 14y ago
    Had to google roissyshere, so no. Hard to find anything specific about him as his blog has disapeared but in general I find the PUA community to be creepy.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - itmag 14y ago
      He changed his moniker: http://heartiste.wordpress.com http://heartiste.wordpress.com
infinite8s 14y ago
> While I know it does happen, it's rare to find women who marry 'down' in the status ladder (be it race, income, or position) How is race among the others in the status ladder?
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Though it shouldn't matter, it does: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-...

by colmvp 14y ago

roguecoder 14y ago

I think your generalizations are ridiculously broad here. Some women are golddiggers, but those relationships are, IMHO, not worth having anyway. Why do you think such a relationship is going to contribute more to your life than spending time on things that actually make you happy? Even if all women wanted was power, we are playing a zero-sum, I-got-mine, race-to-the-bottom, everyone-loses game if we demand total devotion to status, and I don't think most women want that either. Already 25% of stay-at-home parents are men. The majority of women are now in the work force. Egalitarian marriages last longer. Things are changing, and we can help them change faster by opting out of that self-destructive game. That doesn't mean giving up on being able to find a romantic relationship, however. There is a difference between being a bum and not seeking to dominate the people around us to get ahead at all cost. I'd recommend reading http://postmasculine.com/ http://postmasculine.com/ for the dating advice that worked best for me. Much like weight loss, there are no short cuts to becoming capable of having satisfying relationships. It is hard work to move from desperation to a place where relationships are one possible way your life could be a bit nicer, but certainly not the only one. On the other hand, I found it worth the energy.

sanxiyn 14y ago
Some women are golddiggers, but more importantly, all women, as a rule, have golddigging tendency. (There are exceptions, but I am talking of a rule.) This is very well established by now. I recommend reading David Buss's textbook, Evolutionary Psychology, 4th edition. In particular, Women's Long Term Mating Strategies, where the first heading is Preference for Economic Resources. Women consistently rate importance of economic resources in partner twice(!) higher than men. This is consistent from 1930 to today, and does not change whether most women are in the work force or not. As a textbook, it has lots of references you can check yourself.
- paulhauggis 14y ago
  "Some women are golddiggers, but more importantly, all women, as a rule, have golddigging tendency." Exactly. Women want a man that can provide (this is usually achieved through money and power). Just like men want a woman that's attractive. I don't know why people want to go against human nature or try to pretend that it's a bad thing or it doesn't exist.
  - makomk 14y ago
    Not everyone thinks it's human nature. In fact, there's no real reason why we should think that it's human nature rather than (say) a purely social phenomenon that's entirely learnt, and can therefore be changed.
    - crusso 14y ago
      there's no real reason why we should think that it's human nature rather than (say) a purely social phenomenon No reasons except that we already know from separated twin studies that genetics plays a strong role in behavioral traits. Then also as you look at other places in the animal kingdom where learned behavior takes a greatly reduced role to wired/instinctive behavior we see many analogues. Birds provide many examples whereby the male must demonstrate his ability to provide an environment, sustenance, and protection for potential mates. Some male birds build their nests that the females examine before choosing a mate. Other birds demonstrate athletic abilities through dance. Saying that it's just as likely that male/female behaviors are learnt as they are inborn is akin to saying that it's just as likely that having a womb to give birth with is just as likely learnt as inborn.
      - makomk 14y ago
        Male birds also wear and display decorative plumage in order to attract mates, whereas female birds tend to be more drap. Obviously it's natural for men to look and dress prettily in order to demonstrate their attractiveness to women, who as the ones being wooed don't need to put in the same kind of effort. It's funny how selective our analogies to nature are sometimes.
NotMyMorals 14y ago
> Egalitarian marriages last longer. Do you have any data for that, or even a rigorous definition of an "egalitarian marriage?"
- roguecoder 14y ago
  The definition of egalitarian marriage is either division of household labor (reduces probability of divorce for women: http://jfi.sagepub.com/content/24/1/51.short http://jfi.sagepub.com/content/24/1/51.short), predominantly equal contributions of income (no effect on divorce relative to men earning more, decreases probability relative to women earning more: http://www.addegem-asso.fr/docs/PapersDMM2009/7.pdf http://www.addegem-asso.fr/docs/PapersDMM2009/7.pdf) and egalitarian gender roles (lowers probability of divorce when held by men: http://books.google.com/books?id=Yv8KZnvVbTsC&lpg=PA225&ots=OgvNsREYvj&dq=Do%20gender%20role%20attitudes%20matter%3F%20Family%20formation%20and%20dissolution%20among%20traditional%20and%20egalitarian%20men%20and%20women&lr&pg=PA225#v=onepage&q=Do%20gender%20role%20attitudes%20matter?%20Family%20formation%20and%20dissolution%20among%20traditional%20and%20egalitarian%20men%20and%20women&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=Yv8KZnvVbTsC&lpg=PA225&... )
colmvp 14y ago
I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not insinuating that women are generally gold-diggers. I'm saying that ultimately status and income are considerations that come into play when it comes to the mating game. Physical attractiveness aside, a male doctor or male CEO is going to attract more interest than a male barista by virtue of his occupation and income. Income and wealth for men is a sometimes a consideration not different from height. Let's put it another way: A minority male in the U.S. like an Asian male who earns a certain amount above the average is going to have significantly a lot more choices in interracial pairings than if he were at a low paying job. Statistics show that Caucasians females rarely marry Asians in the United States, but when they do, that pairing has the highest median income level compared to every other pairing in the U.S., including Caucasian/Caucasian and Asian/Asian. Anecdotally, all the Asian men I know who married Caucasian female are well-paid relative to the average Asian American male.
- cwb71 14y ago
  > Physical attractiveness aside, a male doctor or male CEO is going to attract more interest than a male barista by virtue of his occupation and income. You clearly do not live in San Francisco.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- roguecoder 14y ago
  My argument is this: so what? You say these things like marriage, and in your case interracial marriage, is the be-all and end-all of happiness. I argue that it isn't, and all research directly correlating income and happiness finds that it tops out around $67k. If you sacrifice happiness for marriage, and get a crappier marriage than you would otherwise have in the bargin, what is the point?
  - akldfgj 14y ago
    > $67k. Not in Silicon Valley. In Ohio, maybe.
hackinthebochs 14y ago
>Egalitarian marriages last longer. Second the call for a rationale for this. In fact, I would wager that the opposite is true.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Citations provided below. While I've seen no causal evidence, the best hypothesis is that it is the result of perceived fairness, social connection to the partner or a side effect of people with egalitarian beliefs only get married when they really want to, rather than out of a sense of necessity.

freshhawk 14y ago

Actually I remember reading [1] that since the recent economic downturn, because it affected men much more than women, more women are marrying "down" than are marrying "up". I agree that our societal norms haven't caught up with the fact that there are no longer enough high status men and low status women for all the women to marry up anymore, so the social pressure is still there but it seems to be changing fairly quickly. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/08/marriage-and-class-study http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/08/marriage-and-c...

itmag 14y ago
high status men and low status women Do I detect a roissysphere shibboleth? :)
- freshhawk 14y ago
  Had to google roissyshere, so no. Hard to find anything specific about him as his blog has disapeared but in general I find the PUA community to be creepy.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - itmag 14y ago
    He changed his moniker: http://heartiste.wordpress.com http://heartiste.wordpress.com

infinite8s 14y ago

> While I know it does happen, it's rare to find women who marry 'down' in the status ladder (be it race, income, or position) How is race among the others in the status ladder?

roguecoder 14y ago
Though it shouldn't matter, it does: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-...