10 ms·

But as a society, we refuse to let our male CEO's work less. Why? There are people fighting traditional gender roles. But then you get called a feminazi by peo

by rmc 14y ago

But as a society, we refuse to let our male CEO's work less. Why? There are people fighting traditional gender roles. But then you get called a feminazi by people who don't want change. Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities.

Arelius 14y ago
> Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. The problem is feminism doesn't actually do a particularly good job at making it clear that is what they are fighting for, and perhaps because there is a particularly vocal minority that doesn't believe that to be the true and proper goal of feminism.
- egillie 14y ago
  Yeah, this is the problem with any big movement without a figurehead, like the 99% movement.
NotMyMorals 14y ago
>There are people fighting traditional gender roles. But then you get called a feminazi by people who don't want change. People who embrace our traditions get called "troglodytes" "fascists" "nazis" "sexists" and the like by cultural Marxists, moralistic activists, and other fanatics. >Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. No thanks. Feminism, like religion, should be kept to one's self. Stop trying to proselytize. You may be surprised to learn how little many people care about your 20th century social ideologies.
- ShawnBird 14y ago
  Except that feminism is a social movement that only works when it is widely understood and religion is a personal belief structure. The two are nothing alike.
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    >feminism is a social movement that only works when it is widely understood Feminism is widely understood. Feminists, like most cultural leftists, simply assume that anyone who rejects their ideology doesn't "understand it." Our understanding of your ideology is precisely the reason we reject it. Leftist ideology clearly has its roots in secularized Judeo-Christianity. We all have the "original sin" of racism/sexism/etc. we must be redeemed of, and the world is "torn" and must be tikkun-olamed to be "fixed" by a priest class of activists. No thanks.
    - makomk 14y ago
      > Feminism is widely understood. Feminists, like most cultural leftists, simply assume that anyone who rejects their ideology doesn't "understand it." I think that this is the most concise summary of what's wrong with feminism as an ideology that I've ever seen. One thing to note is that this doesn't just apply to outsiders; feminists do this to other feminists that disagree with them , which is probably one reason why the grassroots of the movement is consistently a lot more reasonable than the career activists.
    - ShawnBird 14y ago
      > Feminism is widely understood. It is widely understood because people talk about it. Maybe it is over discussed; I obviously don't have a complete understanding of it because I thought that it was a movement for equality and you seem to disagree.
- pjscott 14y ago
  > No thanks. Feminism, like religion, should be kept to one's self. Stop trying to proselytize. The whole point of feminism is to effect some changes in society. How do you propose to do that without, you know, talking about it? Incidentally, I feel the same way about religions. I'm fine with being proselytized at, because I'm okay with people trying to persuade me of their opinions on any subject -- I don't consider religion special here. (And really, I'm not sure what to think about people who believe that their religion is the one true path to salvation, and don't try to convince others to join. It seems kind of... selfish, I guess? I don't believe any of that stuff, so I guess I should be happy about the peace and quiet, but it still irks me slightly.)
  - bzbarsky 14y ago
    The people who believe their religion is he one true path to salvation _do_ tend to proselytize. Thing is, many religions don't think they're the one true path to salvation (and in fact many don't even have a "salvation" going on). And people who hold to those rightfully get annoyed when they can't have lunch in peace because someone shows up on their doorstep trying to convince them that this someone's religion _is_ such a one true path. The key problem with proselytizing isn't that it happens, it's _how_ it happens.
- rmc 14y ago
  Some of them are sexists.
mtoddh 14y ago
With feminists like Hanna Rosin writing articles like "The End of Men" [1], perhaps men can be forgiven for a little skepticism as to whether the fight "is for everyone." [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-...
- specialist 14y ago
  Oh, please. There's no shortage of troglodytes advocating women stay at home, in the kitchen, bare footed, and pregnant. There's even laments about women suffrage (enfranchisement, right to vote). You don't have to look very hard to find whack jobs of any stripe to use as justification for own reactionary / oppositional views.
  - mtoddh 14y ago
    There's no shortage of troglodytes advocating women stay at home, in the kitchen, bare footed, and pregnant. And I imagine these troglodytes make some women skeptical of whether they should rely on men to empower women.
  - klbarry 14y ago
    Truth be told, I've never seen someone here in NYC who espoused the above views, or have read them. In fact, most people I've met look down on women who don't have careers. A google search of "women should stay at home" gives mostly people critical of the viewpoint. Could you like to me to someone supporting stay at home women?
- Cushman 14y ago
  Yes, I'm sure most men learned what they know about feminism from Atlantic articles. That is the simplest explanation here.
- makomk 14y ago
  For an alternative viewpoint on that article: http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/is-female-dominance-a-success-for-feminism/ http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/is-female-dominance-a-succ... Though come to think of it, that's just as bad too. If we deal with women doing worse in some areas through affirmative action and other schemes aimed at compensating for their disadvantages, but deal with men doing worse in others by just trying to do away with the idea that gender matters - which we never consider to be enough when women are worse off - the net result is effectively systematic discrimination in favour of women throughout society.
anamax 14y ago
> Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. No, you're not. For the most part, feminism is aimed at giving privileged women some of the same opportunities that privileged men have. As a "not very privileged" man.... And, in many cases, the result of "same" has been (at best) marginal increases for women accompanied by huge decreases for men. It's unclear why that's an improvement. And, we've yet to see feminists address female privileges, except, of course, to defend them.

by rmc 14y ago

Arelius 14y ago

> Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. The problem is feminism doesn't actually do a particularly good job at making it clear that is what they are fighting for, and perhaps because there is a particularly vocal minority that doesn't believe that to be the true and proper goal of feminism.

egillie 14y ago
Yeah, this is the problem with any big movement without a figurehead, like the 99% movement.

NotMyMorals 14y ago

>There are people fighting traditional gender roles. But then you get called a feminazi by people who don't want change. People who embrace our traditions get called "troglodytes" "fascists" "nazis" "sexists" and the like by cultural Marxists, moralistic activists, and other fanatics. >Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. No thanks. Feminism, like religion, should be kept to one's self. Stop trying to proselytize. You may be surprised to learn how little many people care about your 20th century social ideologies.

ShawnBird 14y ago
Except that feminism is a social movement that only works when it is widely understood and religion is a personal belief structure. The two are nothing alike.
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  >feminism is a social movement that only works when it is widely understood Feminism is widely understood. Feminists, like most cultural leftists, simply assume that anyone who rejects their ideology doesn't "understand it." Our understanding of your ideology is precisely the reason we reject it. Leftist ideology clearly has its roots in secularized Judeo-Christianity. We all have the "original sin" of racism/sexism/etc. we must be redeemed of, and the world is "torn" and must be tikkun-olamed to be "fixed" by a priest class of activists. No thanks.
  - makomk 14y ago
    > Feminism is widely understood. Feminists, like most cultural leftists, simply assume that anyone who rejects their ideology doesn't "understand it." I think that this is the most concise summary of what's wrong with feminism as an ideology that I've ever seen. One thing to note is that this doesn't just apply to outsiders; feminists do this to other feminists that disagree with them , which is probably one reason why the grassroots of the movement is consistently a lot more reasonable than the career activists.
  - ShawnBird 14y ago
    > Feminism is widely understood. It is widely understood because people talk about it. Maybe it is over discussed; I obviously don't have a complete understanding of it because I thought that it was a movement for equality and you seem to disagree.
pjscott 14y ago
> No thanks. Feminism, like religion, should be kept to one's self. Stop trying to proselytize. The whole point of feminism is to effect some changes in society. How do you propose to do that without, you know, talking about it? Incidentally, I feel the same way about religions. I'm fine with being proselytized at, because I'm okay with people trying to persuade me of their opinions on any subject -- I don't consider religion special here. (And really, I'm not sure what to think about people who believe that their religion is the one true path to salvation, and don't try to convince others to join. It seems kind of... selfish, I guess? I don't believe any of that stuff, so I guess I should be happy about the peace and quiet, but it still irks me slightly.)
- bzbarsky 14y ago
  The people who believe their religion is he one true path to salvation _do_ tend to proselytize. Thing is, many religions don't think they're the one true path to salvation (and in fact many don't even have a "salvation" going on). And people who hold to those rightfully get annoyed when they can't have lunch in peace because someone shows up on their doorstep trying to convince them that this someone's religion _is_ such a one true path. The key problem with proselytizing isn't that it happens, it's _how_ it happens.
rmc 14y ago
Some of them are sexists.

mtoddh 14y ago

With feminists like Hanna Rosin writing articles like "The End of Men" [1], perhaps men can be forgiven for a little skepticism as to whether the fight "is for everyone." [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/8135/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-...

specialist 14y ago
Oh, please. There's no shortage of troglodytes advocating women stay at home, in the kitchen, bare footed, and pregnant. There's even laments about women suffrage (enfranchisement, right to vote). You don't have to look very hard to find whack jobs of any stripe to use as justification for own reactionary / oppositional views.
- mtoddh 14y ago
  There's no shortage of troglodytes advocating women stay at home, in the kitchen, bare footed, and pregnant. And I imagine these troglodytes make some women skeptical of whether they should rely on men to empower women.
- klbarry 14y ago
  Truth be told, I've never seen someone here in NYC who espoused the above views, or have read them. In fact, most people I've met look down on women who don't have careers. A google search of "women should stay at home" gives mostly people critical of the viewpoint. Could you like to me to someone supporting stay at home women?
Cushman 14y ago
Yes, I'm sure most men learned what they know about feminism from Atlantic articles. That is the simplest explanation here.
makomk 14y ago
For an alternative viewpoint on that article: http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/is-female-dominance-a-success-for-feminism/ http://feministing.com/2010/06/16/is-female-dominance-a-succ... Though come to think of it, that's just as bad too. If we deal with women doing worse in some areas through affirmative action and other schemes aimed at compensating for their disadvantages, but deal with men doing worse in others by just trying to do away with the idea that gender matters - which we never consider to be enough when women are worse off - the net result is effectively systematic discrimination in favour of women throughout society.

anamax 14y ago

> Come over to feminism. We're fighting for everyone to have the same opertunities. No, you're not. For the most part, feminism is aimed at giving privileged women some of the same opportunities that privileged men have. As a "not very privileged" man.... And, in many cases, the result of "same" has been (at best) marginal increases for women accompanied by huge decreases for men. It's unclear why that's an improvement. And, we've yet to see feminists address female privileges, except, of course, to defend them.