6 ms·

Well, yes, but this situation is largely our own fault. I know there are plenty of men who want to split domestic chores fifty-fifty and take an equal role in

Well, yes, but this situation is largely our own fault. I know there are plenty of men who want to split domestic chores fifty-fifty and take an equal role in childrearing, and I admire them. But there are plenty more, including myself at times, who have been happy to let our spouses shoulder more than their fair share of domestic work - not because we're deliberately trying to be troglodytes, but because a good portion of domestic work is thankless and uninteresting. So we do things less often and less well than our spouses, usually unconsciously, and eventually things gravitate towards something like an eighty-twenty split. This gets us what we want, but it also gives rise to the incompetent husband stereotype that's bothering the author of this piece. I've got no idea how to fix this soft bigotry of low expectations, if it can be fixed at all - we obviously don't mind being made fun of for our incompetence at things we don't want to do in the first place. Cultural problems are always the hardest to solve.

HotKFreshSwag 14y ago
One way to cure this symptom of patriarchy is to try to stop being a 'troglodyte' as you put it. What would a non-'troglodyte' do? If you shrug, accept the status quo and say meh, it's a cultural problem you're functionally no different than someone who is completely ignorant of the issue.
- gyardley 14y ago
  Well, yes - I stopped behaving this way a while ago. But I was referring to the difficulty of changing the behavior of people who are not me. Changing yourself is easy; getting others to want to change themselves is not.
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    >Changing yourself is easy; getting others to want to change themselves is not. Yes, and why should we want to change to be like you?
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  >One way to cure this symptom of patriarchy is to try to stop being a 'troglodyte' as you put it. "Patriarchy?" Cultural Marxism went out in the 1970s. "Troglodyte?" As a metaphor for a man who works and takes care of his wife and children? "Ignorant?" No one is "ignorant" of cultural Marxist screeds about "sexism" and "patriarchy." Plenty of people are quite knowledgeable on these issues, but simply reject your kind's often-strange morality and attempts to remake society to conform to bizarre sociological notions from the last century. Really, burning bras is so last century. Get with the times.
  - HotKFreshSwag 14y ago
    Is the pursuit of equality really something you think of as strange or outdated?
    - NotMyMorals 14y ago
      >Is the pursuit of equality really something you think of as strange or outdated? Labeling your ideology with glittering generalities like the "pursuit of equality" doesn't change the substance. "Equality" was traditionally understood to be "equality under the law" not some vague "social equality" where all social distinctions must be erased. "Feminism" is clearly not about men and women being equal under the law.
      - gte910h 14y ago
        Equality is about far more than just law. It's about having similar expectations for people of both sexes in everything.
        makomk 14y ago
        Except it's not. Example: women who expect to have custody of their kids no matter what are perfectly reasonable, men who expect to actually be allowed to see their kids are demonstrating their male privilege and acting as though the kids are their property. This doesn't just apply to non-law areas either. A few years ago the British government consoldated all anti-discrimination law into a single Equality Bill, and as part of this they had a consultation period where interested parties could submit their thoughts. Several really well-known and respected feminist organisations submitted complaints that some local authorities were only offering funding for services to rape and domestic violence survivors if they offered advice to victims of all genders who rang up, and argued that in order to achieve equality the Government should force them to direct all their funding to women-only services. Equality can be used to mean a lot of things.
yaliceme 14y ago
>"a good portion of domestic work is thankless and uninteresting" >"we obviously don't mind being made fun of for our incompetence at things we don't want to do in the first place." This reminds me of the "protective incompetence" that paul graham talks about in "How to Start a Startup" (http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html): People who don't want to get dragged into some kind of work often develop a protective incompetence at it. Paul Erdos was particularly good at this. By seeming unable even to cut a grapefruit in half (let alone go to the store and buy one), he forced other people to do such things for him, leaving all his time free for math. Erdos was an extreme case, but most husbands use the same trick to some degree.
- huggyface 14y ago
  To be fair, Paul is far from the first to make such an observation. It has long been called strategic incompetence and is a very common behavior to avoid doing something you don't want to do.
  - gyardley 14y ago
    I didn't know the concept had a name. Awesome, thanks.
infinite8s 14y ago
It's not like women enjoy doing that sort of work more than men. Just suck it up and do it. Otherwise, cultural expectations and your own laziness are just letting you take advantage of your wife.
will_work4tears 14y ago
I do my share of the domestic chores, I don't even mind changing the diapers or feeding my son. However, what I hate is walking around holding him up on my shoulder for hours on end while he is crying. Unfortunately, I think I let the wife "shoulder" the burden in that case - though I don't pretend incompetence, I just work it out with her in discussions that I'd prefer her to do that and I'll make it up in other ways. FWIW, I probably do a bit more than half of the housework, I always cook, almost always do dishes (she does them a couple times a month), do all of the yard work/trash, etc and she sweeps, does laundry and cleans the bathrooms. We split everything else.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  I think that any couple who has honest, adult communication is already leaps and bounds ahead. Many seem to take tasks for granted based on gender roles. By the time one's gotten to "and then we have a conversation about our individual preferences" things are less likely to be grossly unbalanced.
JanezStupar 14y ago
I don't have kids yet. But I would have a big beef with a relationship in which one person does 80% of the work. I am mentioning this because you make it appear as if you sit idle while your wife does the work. In our home I take care of the handywork and the nasty work (home maintenance, getting plumbing and sewage to work,...). If I was working overtime or 2nd job to help support the family I would set that right next to my wives work with the housewife stuff (if that was the arrangement). On the other hand "working overtime" just to hide from doing your part or to "go out with friends" on a regular basis to get away from your family, I consider pretty weak and immature.
roguecoder 14y ago
I am reminded of Carol Channing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7dJrGnEYI&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7dJrGnEYI&feature=relat... On the other hand, I don't think we can write off social forces. Starting in school we punish little boys from being "pussies" for doing the kinds of things that make good parents. It continues into the workplace: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/men/11/2/140/ http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/men/11/2/140/ If every time you do something people treat you worse, you are likely to stop doing that thing even if it might otherwise make us happier. The best way to change that is to become aware of the dynamic, notice when it is happening, resist and point it out to the people around us. It is a combination of just making these choices ourselves, despite the downsides, and making sure other people don't get to unconsciously punish us for choosing non-traditional paths to happiness. They may still punish us, but they will have to confront their own bigotry to do so.
erichocean 14y ago
The rule in our house is that, for work that neither of us wants to do, we do it together. I had my 15 year wedding anniversary this month, and it's worked pretty well for us. :)

HotKFreshSwag 14y ago

One way to cure this symptom of patriarchy is to try to stop being a 'troglodyte' as you put it. What would a non-'troglodyte' do? If you shrug, accept the status quo and say meh, it's a cultural problem you're functionally no different than someone who is completely ignorant of the issue.

gyardley 14y ago
Well, yes - I stopped behaving this way a while ago. But I was referring to the difficulty of changing the behavior of people who are not me. Changing yourself is easy; getting others to want to change themselves is not.
- NotMyMorals 14y ago
  >Changing yourself is easy; getting others to want to change themselves is not. Yes, and why should we want to change to be like you?
NotMyMorals 14y ago
>One way to cure this symptom of patriarchy is to try to stop being a 'troglodyte' as you put it. "Patriarchy?" Cultural Marxism went out in the 1970s. "Troglodyte?" As a metaphor for a man who works and takes care of his wife and children? "Ignorant?" No one is "ignorant" of cultural Marxist screeds about "sexism" and "patriarchy." Plenty of people are quite knowledgeable on these issues, but simply reject your kind's often-strange morality and attempts to remake society to conform to bizarre sociological notions from the last century. Really, burning bras is so last century. Get with the times.
- HotKFreshSwag 14y ago
  Is the pursuit of equality really something you think of as strange or outdated?
  - NotMyMorals 14y ago
    >Is the pursuit of equality really something you think of as strange or outdated? Labeling your ideology with glittering generalities like the "pursuit of equality" doesn't change the substance. "Equality" was traditionally understood to be "equality under the law" not some vague "social equality" where all social distinctions must be erased. "Feminism" is clearly not about men and women being equal under the law.
    - gte910h 14y ago
      Equality is about far more than just law. It's about having similar expectations for people of both sexes in everything.
      - makomk 14y ago
        Except it's not. Example: women who expect to have custody of their kids no matter what are perfectly reasonable, men who expect to actually be allowed to see their kids are demonstrating their male privilege and acting as though the kids are their property. This doesn't just apply to non-law areas either. A few years ago the British government consoldated all anti-discrimination law into a single Equality Bill, and as part of this they had a consultation period where interested parties could submit their thoughts. Several really well-known and respected feminist organisations submitted complaints that some local authorities were only offering funding for services to rape and domestic violence survivors if they offered advice to victims of all genders who rang up, and argued that in order to achieve equality the Government should force them to direct all their funding to women-only services. Equality can be used to mean a lot of things.

yaliceme 14y ago

>"a good portion of domestic work is thankless and uninteresting" >"we obviously don't mind being made fun of for our incompetence at things we don't want to do in the first place." This reminds me of the "protective incompetence" that paul graham talks about in "How to Start a Startup" (http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html): People who don't want to get dragged into some kind of work often develop a protective incompetence at it. Paul Erdos was particularly good at this. By seeming unable even to cut a grapefruit in half (let alone go to the store and buy one), he forced other people to do such things for him, leaving all his time free for math. Erdos was an extreme case, but most husbands use the same trick to some degree.

huggyface 14y ago
To be fair, Paul is far from the first to make such an observation. It has long been called strategic incompetence and is a very common behavior to avoid doing something you don't want to do.
- gyardley 14y ago
  I didn't know the concept had a name. Awesome, thanks.

infinite8s 14y ago

It's not like women enjoy doing that sort of work more than men. Just suck it up and do it. Otherwise, cultural expectations and your own laziness are just letting you take advantage of your wife.

will_work4tears 14y ago

I do my share of the domestic chores, I don't even mind changing the diapers or feeding my son. However, what I hate is walking around holding him up on my shoulder for hours on end while he is crying. Unfortunately, I think I let the wife "shoulder" the burden in that case - though I don't pretend incompetence, I just work it out with her in discussions that I'd prefer her to do that and I'll make it up in other ways. FWIW, I probably do a bit more than half of the housework, I always cook, almost always do dishes (she does them a couple times a month), do all of the yard work/trash, etc and she sweeps, does laundry and cleans the bathrooms. We split everything else.

roguecoder 14y ago
I think that any couple who has honest, adult communication is already leaps and bounds ahead. Many seem to take tasks for granted based on gender roles. By the time one's gotten to "and then we have a conversation about our individual preferences" things are less likely to be grossly unbalanced.

JanezStupar 14y ago

I don't have kids yet. But I would have a big beef with a relationship in which one person does 80% of the work. I am mentioning this because you make it appear as if you sit idle while your wife does the work. In our home I take care of the handywork and the nasty work (home maintenance, getting plumbing and sewage to work,...). If I was working overtime or 2nd job to help support the family I would set that right next to my wives work with the housewife stuff (if that was the arrangement). On the other hand "working overtime" just to hide from doing your part or to "go out with friends" on a regular basis to get away from your family, I consider pretty weak and immature.

roguecoder 14y ago

I am reminded of Carol Channing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7dJrGnEYI&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y7dJrGnEYI&feature=relat... On the other hand, I don't think we can write off social forces. Starting in school we punish little boys from being "pussies" for doing the kinds of things that make good parents. It continues into the workplace: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/men/11/2/140/ http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/men/11/2/140/ If every time you do something people treat you worse, you are likely to stop doing that thing even if it might otherwise make us happier. The best way to change that is to become aware of the dynamic, notice when it is happening, resist and point it out to the people around us. It is a combination of just making these choices ourselves, despite the downsides, and making sure other people don't get to unconsciously punish us for choosing non-traditional paths to happiness. They may still punish us, but they will have to confront their own bigotry to do so.

erichocean 14y ago

The rule in our house is that, for work that neither of us wants to do, we do it together. I had my 15 year wedding anniversary this month, and it's worked pretty well for us. :)