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In 2023, Mozilla reported $37,574,982 in investment income, accounting for over 58% of the non-profit’s total revenue for the year. [1] Is that not enough to m

In 2023, Mozilla reported $37,574,982 in investment income, accounting for over 58% of the non-profit’s total revenue for the year. [1] Is that not enough to maintain a browser? EDIT: this figure is for Mozilla Foundation only, Mozilla Corpotation makes about 9 times that amount (I assume most of which comes from Google). My point still stands though: $37M isn’t a terribly big amount of money, but it’s still a lot. [1]: https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/wiki/File:501c3_2023_990_Mozilla_Foundation_-_Full_Filing_-_Nonprofit_Explorer_-_ProPublica.pdf https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/wiki/File:501c3_2023_990_Mozi...

kevingadd 2y ago
As someone who previously worked on both Firefox and Chrome, it's not. The mandate of modern browsers is too large. But Mozilla is definitely wasting a lot of money on stuff that doesn't contribute to their mission.
- smegsicle 2y ago
  does 'a lot' mean like almost half?
- hyfgfh 2y ago
  > But Mozilla is definitely wasting a lot of money on stuff that doesn't contribute to their mission. Yes, I have noticed that too and every year they sink deeper with ads and shady choices If they keep it lean and with a high standard the community wouldn't stop supporting it, but every 6 month or so they make a shady decision and lose more support
wodenokoto 2y ago
I haven't kept up with Mozillas yearly reports for over a decade, but are you saying that they no longer rely 90% on search for income? And what is "investment" here? Doesn't sound like actual revenue.
- notpushkin 2y ago
  My bad – that figure was for the Foundation only. Foundation + Corporation was ~10 times higher (I suppose that’s the 90% from Google). Though it’s mind-boggling in any case. I’m sure there’s thousands of brilliant developers who would gladly work for Mozilla for like $50k/yr if it was truly independent. That’s 750 full-time devs from investment income alone (which was Mozilla Corp’s total employee count in 2020, so I assume that should be about right). (Investment here, I suppose, is what it says: they’re buying a bunch of stocks and use profits from these for their charitable goals. Kinda like endowment kind of thing.)
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    > I’m sure there’s thousands of brilliant developers who would gladly work for Mozilla for like $50k/yr if it was truly independent. I am not sure. Can you convince me with evidence?
  - bagacrap 2y ago
    Maybe they could offer that amount in some very LCOL area, I guess? But browser and standards development is highly technical, not something you can easily outsource to some offshore sweatshop. So 50k/year is kind of an insult, and even the purest souls would have a hard time turning down 4-10x that compensation at Apple, Google, and other competitors. Not to mention, there are a lot of non payroll expenses to account for.
xivzgrev 2y ago
apparently it is. They earned $19M from program service revenue, and profited almost $25M. So they could cut the entire Google deal, and still be in the black. Not as profitable as before (obviously they've been investing their profit for a long time, to drive $37M in investment income) but not as dire as this blog post makes it sound
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  Your research excluded the income and expenses of the company which produces the browser. Mozilla Foundation's program service revenue is Mozilla Corporation paying Mozilla Foundation to use Mozilla and Firefox trademarks. Mozilla entities in 2023 received $495 million in royalties. This was 76% of revenue. Royalties means search deals essentially. Search deals means Google essentially. Total expenses were $497 million.
flomo 2y ago
They can keep it going for several years, but Firefox marketshare is already sinking into irrelevancy territory, and they have NEVER had a real plan to do anything about that. Mozilla philosophy has been just to ride it down. Just trail chrome most of the time. Just out of habit, I still test my stuff in Firefox (nobody above me cares). But market share is already getting into "only weirdos use this" territory. And "weirdos" also like a bunch of weirdo extensions. (And I frequently see HNers complaining about this.) So eventually, its like we just don't support weirdos.
- notpushkin 2y ago
  I mean, that’s the problem isn’t it? If we want Firefox to even have a fighting chance, they have to ditch Google and completely rethink their strategy. (Obviously, that means complete change of management, which is really unlikely to happen until the very minute it all comes crashing down.) > Just out of habit, I still test my stuff in Firefox (nobody above me cares). Personally, I develop on Firefox, then test on Chrome (and other browsers). I get the sentiment though.
  - flomo 2y ago
    I generally agree, but that's not what Mozills is arguing at all. > The last unicorn–the web can’t afford to lose Mozilla’s browser engine Their stated plan is to be the "endagered species", like the Dodo of browsers. Can you find enough weirdos to care about that?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- kelnos 2y ago
  Sure, but not sure how that's related to whether or not the Mozilla Foundation can fund development off $37.5M per year. Marketing and evangelism isn't free, but I find it hard to believe $37.5M per year wouldn't cover everything they need to do. At an average of $200k per employee, that's 187 people. As you point out, it's their strategy that's the problem. I'm not convinced they need more money to come up with and implement a better strategy. (Yes, I know they pay for more than just employee salaries. Presumably they have other income apart from that $37.5M that doesn't come from Google.)
notpushkin 2y ago
One more thing – I’ve started a petition to Mozilla to try to finally ditch Google: https://mozillapetition.com/ https://mozillapetition.com/ Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43340948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43340948

kevingadd 2y ago

As someone who previously worked on both Firefox and Chrome, it's not. The mandate of modern browsers is too large. But Mozilla is definitely wasting a lot of money on stuff that doesn't contribute to their mission.

smegsicle 2y ago
does 'a lot' mean like almost half?
hyfgfh 2y ago
> But Mozilla is definitely wasting a lot of money on stuff that doesn't contribute to their mission. Yes, I have noticed that too and every year they sink deeper with ads and shady choices If they keep it lean and with a high standard the community wouldn't stop supporting it, but every 6 month or so they make a shady decision and lose more support

wodenokoto 2y ago

I haven't kept up with Mozillas yearly reports for over a decade, but are you saying that they no longer rely 90% on search for income? And what is "investment" here? Doesn't sound like actual revenue.

notpushkin 2y ago
My bad – that figure was for the Foundation only. Foundation + Corporation was ~10 times higher (I suppose that’s the 90% from Google). Though it’s mind-boggling in any case. I’m sure there’s thousands of brilliant developers who would gladly work for Mozilla for like $50k/yr if it was truly independent. That’s 750 full-time devs from investment income alone (which was Mozilla Corp’s total employee count in 2020, so I assume that should be about right). (Investment here, I suppose, is what it says: they’re buying a bunch of stocks and use profits from these for their charitable goals. Kinda like endowment kind of thing.)
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  > I’m sure there’s thousands of brilliant developers who would gladly work for Mozilla for like $50k/yr if it was truly independent. I am not sure. Can you convince me with evidence?
- bagacrap 2y ago
  Maybe they could offer that amount in some very LCOL area, I guess? But browser and standards development is highly technical, not something you can easily outsource to some offshore sweatshop. So 50k/year is kind of an insult, and even the purest souls would have a hard time turning down 4-10x that compensation at Apple, Google, and other competitors. Not to mention, there are a lot of non payroll expenses to account for.

xivzgrev 2y ago

apparently it is. They earned $19M from program service revenue, and profited almost $25M. So they could cut the entire Google deal, and still be in the black. Not as profitable as before (obviously they've been investing their profit for a long time, to drive $37M in investment income) but not as dire as this blog post makes it sound

pseudalopex 2y ago
Your research excluded the income and expenses of the company which produces the browser. Mozilla Foundation's program service revenue is Mozilla Corporation paying Mozilla Foundation to use Mozilla and Firefox trademarks. Mozilla entities in 2023 received $495 million in royalties. This was 76% of revenue. Royalties means search deals essentially. Search deals means Google essentially. Total expenses were $497 million.

flomo 2y ago

They can keep it going for several years, but Firefox marketshare is already sinking into irrelevancy territory, and they have NEVER had a real plan to do anything about that. Mozilla philosophy has been just to ride it down. Just trail chrome most of the time. Just out of habit, I still test my stuff in Firefox (nobody above me cares). But market share is already getting into "only weirdos use this" territory. And "weirdos" also like a bunch of weirdo extensions. (And I frequently see HNers complaining about this.) So eventually, its like we just don't support weirdos.

notpushkin 2y ago
I mean, that’s the problem isn’t it? If we want Firefox to even have a fighting chance, they have to ditch Google and completely rethink their strategy. (Obviously, that means complete change of management, which is really unlikely to happen until the very minute it all comes crashing down.) > Just out of habit, I still test my stuff in Firefox (nobody above me cares). Personally, I develop on Firefox, then test on Chrome (and other browsers). I get the sentiment though.
- flomo 2y ago
  I generally agree, but that's not what Mozills is arguing at all. > The last unicorn–the web can’t afford to lose Mozilla’s browser engine Their stated plan is to be the "endagered species", like the Dodo of browsers. Can you find enough weirdos to care about that?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
kelnos 2y ago
Sure, but not sure how that's related to whether or not the Mozilla Foundation can fund development off $37.5M per year. Marketing and evangelism isn't free, but I find it hard to believe $37.5M per year wouldn't cover everything they need to do. At an average of $200k per employee, that's 187 people. As you point out, it's their strategy that's the problem. I'm not convinced they need more money to come up with and implement a better strategy. (Yes, I know they pay for more than just employee salaries. Presumably they have other income apart from that $37.5M that doesn't come from Google.)

notpushkin 2y ago

One more thing – I’ve started a petition to Mozilla to try to finally ditch Google: https://mozillapetition.com/ https://mozillapetition.com/ Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43340948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43340948