4 ms·

I don't have enough knowledge of native graphics libraries, nor of WebGL, to speak to the core issue in this article. But, as a young'n, the last line really st

by chao- 14y ago

I don't have enough knowledge of native graphics libraries, nor of WebGL, to speak to the core issue in this article. But, as a young'n, the last line really strikes a chord with me. I will never experience the joy people had fiddling around with their Apple II's and I still don't know the first thing about the Commodore 64 besides the name. My attitude toward the "How will the kids ever learn unless they can tinker with it?" nostalgia that comes up on HN has always been: "Meh. No one I work with had an Apple II, and we all still ended up as tech-types." That said, the first computer I owned myself ran Windows 98, and the first thing I learned to do with it was noodle around in HTML and JavaScript. Well, Okay. It was second thing I learned to do, after installing Sim City 2000 and wasting a week's worth of time. It was very poignant to realize all at once how the internet provided a chance to be part of an easily-accessible ecosystem, one where you could tell a computer to do something and it just did it. Even if it was in a browser.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago
You could always install DOSBOX and GW-BASIC. Then you can play around with the PLAY statement (feed it a string of notes), the SOUND statement (feed it frequencies) and the DRAW/LINE/PRESET/COLOR/PALETTE statements (draw coloured shapes on the screen).
- jmj42 14y ago
  I remember, at age 8 or 9, being so proud of myself for having developed an app that played a couple of complete songs using SOUND in tandy basic on our first PC (an 8088 w/ a whopping huge 10MB hard drive). My father (an amateur singer), used the "Wind beneath My Wings" version for to warm up before practice.
  - Scriptor 14y ago
    When I was 10 I started reading a VB book and was inordinately proud of myself for learning how to customize the toolbars in the IDE. I just assumed that that was a major part of programming. I also misunderstood the part on autocompletion and thought it meant most of your code was autogenerated. I wasn't the most tech-literate child, but at least I've come a decent way since then.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      Damn I feel old. I was using GW-BASIC when I was 8 :-(
  - bitwize 14y ago
    Me: PLAY "l16ecececececececececececececececececececececececec" My dad: * runs out to answer the "telephone" * Me: * trollface
- reidrac 14y ago
  I learnt to program with GW-BASIC when I was 13 and, as you say, it had all these high level built in functions that made easy getting results. Most of the stuff I programmed when I was 13 was crap, but it was amazingly funny! Today I would recommend Python to start tinkering, but to be honest I think it was easier back then. My PC had 512KB of RAM (it doesn't matter, GW-BASIC allowed only 64KB for both your code and your data), CGA graphic card (4 colors), 8MHz CPU and no HDD disk; and even with all these limitations, I think it was easier than Python + PyGame.
tluyben2 14y ago
Buy an old computer from your local classifieds site/paper; it'll cost you $15 or something including working disks, mags and books. And start coding on it (and hardware tinkering if you like that); it's like a Bonzai tree; it makes a brilliant and relaxing hobby. If you do this a few hours / week, you'll get that serene feeling (at least I do :) of something which is very fulfilling without the stress of HAVING to do it (Javascript is also a job of many and that gives the mixes/stressy feelings). In a year or so you will understand fully a) what we are on about b) how very cheap and simple things can be very fulfilling c) why 'older folks' sometimes sigh when yet a faster CPU is eaten 100% by Windows while not significant seems to have changed d) how your computer works internally ; if you are interested on the digital pulse and IC level (I can extend my MSX computers using 74series logic ICs, which is, again very fulfilling) e) how you can do stuff efficiently in very little memory on very slow computers. That e) point is something which might not seem valuable, but it is and it still is; if you know how to do things on these computers, you understand how computers work and why some assembly code is much slower than other. Although computers are vastly more complex these days, you can extrapolate quite a bit on high level and it will be easier to read current tech documentation about hardware (and software) as well. Anyway; I would recommend everyone to at least try this as I strongly believe it will help current generation understand better. It's also better for your children (and children of others you might know) to let them tinker and learn this young instead of playing XBOX 360 games (that's my opinion but I believe it sticks). Maybe their friends won't be as impressed with them trying to implement a ray caster on a 3.58 mhz machine, but when they get to 12 they can program the Next Great App and win science fairs while the others, well, can play Skyrim.
- zumda 14y ago
  I see there is a lot of nostalgia in that post that I (and others like me) will probably never understand. But, I still don't see the point. It's nice that we could buy and old machine and program something on it. But at the same time we could do it in Javascript, on the web with a very pretty interface. So why should we trade all the knowledge, the tools and the languages that we (well, people like you how tend to get all nostalgic over this topic) have built and and write something on an archaic system? I never had such an old system, yet at the same time, I understand the constraints more or less, I now a bit of assembler, C and still question where this knowledge is really benefiting me. (Though I do find it very interesting!) If I want to have a constraint environment, I could join a JavaScript 1k challenge and also work with artificial constraints (at the same time I could still enjoy the modern tools, environments and even graphics). Maybe I just really don't see the point. And to your last point, I think a better approach would be to show our children either PyGame or even modding tools for modern games. I just don't think a young child would really be that interested in the archaic inner workings of a slow machine, but could be really interested in making mods. I'm not saying there are no such children around (I'm sure there are), I'm just questioning the approach here.

by chao- 14y ago

RyanMcGreal 14y ago

You could always install DOSBOX and GW-BASIC. Then you can play around with the PLAY statement (feed it a string of notes), the SOUND statement (feed it frequencies) and the DRAW/LINE/PRESET/COLOR/PALETTE statements (draw coloured shapes on the screen).

jmj42 14y ago
I remember, at age 8 or 9, being so proud of myself for having developed an app that played a couple of complete songs using SOUND in tandy basic on our first PC (an 8088 w/ a whopping huge 10MB hard drive). My father (an amateur singer), used the "Wind beneath My Wings" version for to warm up before practice.
- Scriptor 14y ago
  When I was 10 I started reading a VB book and was inordinately proud of myself for learning how to customize the toolbars in the IDE. I just assumed that that was a major part of programming. I also misunderstood the part on autocompletion and thought it meant most of your code was autogenerated. I wasn't the most tech-literate child, but at least I've come a decent way since then.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    Damn I feel old. I was using GW-BASIC when I was 8 :-(
- bitwize 14y ago
  Me: PLAY "l16ecececececececececececececececececececececececec" My dad: * runs out to answer the "telephone" * Me: * trollface
reidrac 14y ago
I learnt to program with GW-BASIC when I was 13 and, as you say, it had all these high level built in functions that made easy getting results. Most of the stuff I programmed when I was 13 was crap, but it was amazingly funny! Today I would recommend Python to start tinkering, but to be honest I think it was easier back then. My PC had 512KB of RAM (it doesn't matter, GW-BASIC allowed only 64KB for both your code and your data), CGA graphic card (4 colors), 8MHz CPU and no HDD disk; and even with all these limitations, I think it was easier than Python + PyGame.

tluyben2 14y ago

Buy an old computer from your local classifieds site/paper; it'll cost you $15 or something including working disks, mags and books. And start coding on it (and hardware tinkering if you like that); it's like a Bonzai tree; it makes a brilliant and relaxing hobby. If you do this a few hours / week, you'll get that serene feeling (at least I do :) of something which is very fulfilling without the stress of HAVING to do it (Javascript is also a job of many and that gives the mixes/stressy feelings). In a year or so you will understand fully a) what we are on about b) how very cheap and simple things can be very fulfilling c) why 'older folks' sometimes sigh when yet a faster CPU is eaten 100% by Windows while not significant seems to have changed d) how your computer works internally ; if you are interested on the digital pulse and IC level (I can extend my MSX computers using 74series logic ICs, which is, again very fulfilling) e) how you can do stuff efficiently in very little memory on very slow computers. That e) point is something which might not seem valuable, but it is and it still is; if you know how to do things on these computers, you understand how computers work and why some assembly code is much slower than other. Although computers are vastly more complex these days, you can extrapolate quite a bit on high level and it will be easier to read current tech documentation about hardware (and software) as well. Anyway; I would recommend everyone to at least try this as I strongly believe it will help current generation understand better. It's also better for your children (and children of others you might know) to let them tinker and learn this young instead of playing XBOX 360 games (that's my opinion but I believe it sticks). Maybe their friends won't be as impressed with them trying to implement a ray caster on a 3.58 mhz machine, but when they get to 12 they can program the Next Great App and win science fairs while the others, well, can play Skyrim.

zumda 14y ago
I see there is a lot of nostalgia in that post that I (and others like me) will probably never understand. But, I still don't see the point. It's nice that we could buy and old machine and program something on it. But at the same time we could do it in Javascript, on the web with a very pretty interface. So why should we trade all the knowledge, the tools and the languages that we (well, people like you how tend to get all nostalgic over this topic) have built and and write something on an archaic system? I never had such an old system, yet at the same time, I understand the constraints more or less, I now a bit of assembler, C and still question where this knowledge is really benefiting me. (Though I do find it very interesting!) If I want to have a constraint environment, I could join a JavaScript 1k challenge and also work with artificial constraints (at the same time I could still enjoy the modern tools, environments and even graphics). Maybe I just really don't see the point. And to your last point, I think a better approach would be to show our children either PyGame or even modding tools for modern games. I just don't think a young child would really be that interested in the archaic inner workings of a slow machine, but could be really interested in making mods. I'm not saying there are no such children around (I'm sure there are), I'm just questioning the approach here.