5 ms·

The foreign aid provided by the US does not live in a void; China has been doing well in providing financial aid and loans across the world recently.

by jerlam 2y ago

kulahan 2y ago
This is not inherently a good thing, unless you believe that Chinese values are worth spreading over American ones. This is not to say that is or isn’t the case, just that it’s an effective end-result of letting them have massive influence globally. Additionally, many of China’s deals are meant to bring nations into serious debt, rather than to truly lift them up. Again, this may also be the case with the US, so the question is who you would rather be your creditor.
- krapp 2y ago
  China doesn't spread "Chinese values" any more than America spreads "American values." America is an imperialist capitalist hegemon that exploits and oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence, and as China (which is very capitalistic, despite it's "communist" veneer) expands into the power vacuum created by America vacating its superpower status, it will inevitably do the same, probably in competition with a newly revived and militarized EU. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether America fucks you or China fucks you, or Europe fucks you, either way you're fucked.
  - kulahan 2y ago
    If you think I meant to imply that America doesn’t spread their values, despite numerous attempts throughout my comment to show that I didn’t in ANY way mean to imply that, you may want to reread my comment. I don’t mean this to be mean - I believe that you’re saying pretty much the same thing as me in your first comment re: filling the power vacuum. I also completely disagree. I’d rather be fucked by Europe or USA than China any day of the week. At least at the end of the day, we share vaguely similar values.
    - krapp 2y ago
      I am implying that America doesn't spread its values, because that isn't a thing that any country does. Nations don't have values, they have interests, and any premise to the contrary is just propaganda meant to manufacture consent for military adventurism and imperialism. People will support the premise of going to war in the Middle East to "spread democracy" far more than to "defend the petrodollar and distract the public from Saudi Arabia's complicity in 9/11," for instance.
      - kulahan 2y ago
        Nations are comprised of people who have values and elect representatives based on said values, was my point. Their own personal convictions don’t matter a WHOLE lot.
  - quanto 2y ago
    > oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence Could you provide a recent example (since 2000 if possible; if not, since WW2) where the US oppresses other nations through debt? I am genuinely curious.
    - Maxatar 2y ago
      There's no shortage of examples: Iraq, Egypt, Argentina, Pakistan, Philippines to name a few recent examples.
      - is_true 2y ago
        Argentina is being oppressed by corruption, not the US or any other nation.
    - lazyasciiart 2y ago
      The US has veto power over the IMF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Monetary_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...
      - dash2 2y ago
        It's a bit of a stretch to say "refusing to give a country loans" is exploiting someone through debt. Though "refusing to roll over a loan" might count, if you have first made a country dependent.
        lazyasciiart 2y ago
        The conditions imposed on countries in order to receive a loan are usually the problem.
  - vladms 2y ago
    America fucks itself as much as others. Some countries do resist against all odds, examples: Afghanistan fought both Russia and USA and won; Vietnam had wars with both USA and China (1979) and also won. Some countries prefer a side because of inherent affinities. I find the idea of "superpowers" (or very specific values) more of a Hollywood invention to make people afraid and docile. Yes, some countries do have resources and influence, but lots of times things don't go the way they plan it (values or otherwise).
    - netsharc 2y ago
      I wonder what the situation in Iraq is like now... reading the book "Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone" 1), I got the impression Rumsfeld and Cheney metaphorically drove the car of US power into a concrete wall at full speed in Iraq, by bungling about what happens after they take over the country. They expected a welcome with flowers (like Putin expected in Ukraine) and didn't have a plan for nation building. In the early stages there was even bickering about if the State Departmen or Pentagon was in charge. Needless to say, Afghanistan was a mess too. This article (2) sort of summarizes the entire US occupation. People now think George W. Bush was an OK president (thanks Donnie), but he really did fuck things up big time. I suppose Bin Laden is grinning in his grave, someone's said that 9/11 cost Al Qaida about 500K to stage, if the goal is the destruction of America, what an ROI that's still returning. 1) https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/book_review/imperial-life-emerald-city-inside-baghdad%E2%80%99s-green-zone https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/book_review/imperial-life-eme... 2) https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afgh... / https://archive.is/VfRmL https://archive.is/VfRmL
      - wat10000 2y ago
        It’s amazing to think about how much hinged on 537 votes in Florida. W could have been merely mediocre, but he was presented with a crisis and proceeded to mismanage it horribly.
  - dash2 2y ago
    This idea of moral equivalence is popular and extremely dangerous. It is what Trump expressed as "you think we're so innocent?" No countries are purely altruistic, but there is a big space between pure altruism and simply being exploitative. This ignores the role of norms in foreign policy. For example, think of how the US attitude to the Taliban was (and still is) conditioned by the differences in their beliefs about women in society. If you think it doesn't matter whether America or China is in charge, you will be in for a shock. These countries have deeply different values, and their foreign policy will express that. I note also that you didn't mention Russia. I think it is obvious that Ukraine is not indifferent between being "exploited" by Russia and by the US.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  > Chinese values are worth spreading over American ones. Well the US seems to be allying itself with a murderous dictator and threatening to annex it's neighbours. China is less murderous than Russia, less warmongering and for those of us in Canada/EU, probably more reliable than a potentially fully-fascist US.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    And that's why you carry out politically motivated arrests of Chinese citizens on orders from the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_case_of_Meng_Wanzhou https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_case_of_Meng_Wan...
    - dismalaf 2y ago
      I mean, this wasn't particularly popular in Canada at the time. And yes, we did it for who we thought was our biggest ally, and the fallout definitely wasn't worth it, considering the charges were eventually dropped. Living in Canada and having European family I can tell you the attitudes towards both the US and China have shifted a lot recently.
      - riehwvfbk 2y ago
        The media at the time certainly disagreed: you were a "Chinese spy" if you doubted the wisdom of this arrest. Earlier, Chretien was called a traitor for not joining the war in Iraq (though history would show the wisdom of this decision later). Basically, Canada's recent history was the US saying "jump!" and Canada asking "how high?"
  - kulahan 2y ago
    China has active concen— er, “reeducation camps” for specific religious minorities. Others are required to replace photos of their icon with photos of Xi Jinping. The man implemented social credit scores and will warn neighbors of your bad behavior, to include encouraging shunning you. Dropping the score low enough is enough to get you banned from trains and planes. Political dissidents, highly respected lawmakers, and billionaires can disappear from public at the pleasure of the president. I sincerely hope you were simply speaking out of ignorance.
deadbabe 2y ago
What China is doing is basically usury, it’s not the same. Stop glorifying China.

The foreign aid provided by the US does not live in a void; China has been doing well in providing financial aid and loans across the world recently.

by jerlam 2y ago

The foreign aid provided by the US does not live in a void; China has been doing well in providing financial aid and loans across the world recently.

kulahan 2y ago

This is not inherently a good thing, unless you believe that Chinese values are worth spreading over American ones. This is not to say that is or isn’t the case, just that it’s an effective end-result of letting them have massive influence globally. Additionally, many of China’s deals are meant to bring nations into serious debt, rather than to truly lift them up. Again, this may also be the case with the US, so the question is who you would rather be your creditor.

krapp 2y ago
China doesn't spread "Chinese values" any more than America spreads "American values." America is an imperialist capitalist hegemon that exploits and oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence, and as China (which is very capitalistic, despite it's "communist" veneer) expands into the power vacuum created by America vacating its superpower status, it will inevitably do the same, probably in competition with a newly revived and militarized EU. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether America fucks you or China fucks you, or Europe fucks you, either way you're fucked.
- kulahan 2y ago
  If you think I meant to imply that America doesn’t spread their values, despite numerous attempts throughout my comment to show that I didn’t in ANY way mean to imply that, you may want to reread my comment. I don’t mean this to be mean - I believe that you’re saying pretty much the same thing as me in your first comment re: filling the power vacuum. I also completely disagree. I’d rather be fucked by Europe or USA than China any day of the week. At least at the end of the day, we share vaguely similar values.
  - krapp 2y ago
    I am implying that America doesn't spread its values, because that isn't a thing that any country does. Nations don't have values, they have interests, and any premise to the contrary is just propaganda meant to manufacture consent for military adventurism and imperialism. People will support the premise of going to war in the Middle East to "spread democracy" far more than to "defend the petrodollar and distract the public from Saudi Arabia's complicity in 9/11," for instance.
    - kulahan 2y ago
      Nations are comprised of people who have values and elect representatives based on said values, was my point. Their own personal convictions don’t matter a WHOLE lot.
- quanto 2y ago
  > oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence Could you provide a recent example (since 2000 if possible; if not, since WW2) where the US oppresses other nations through debt? I am genuinely curious.
  - Maxatar 2y ago
    There's no shortage of examples: Iraq, Egypt, Argentina, Pakistan, Philippines to name a few recent examples.
    - is_true 2y ago
      Argentina is being oppressed by corruption, not the US or any other nation.
  - lazyasciiart 2y ago
    The US has veto power over the IMF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Monetary_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...
    - dash2 2y ago
      It's a bit of a stretch to say "refusing to give a country loans" is exploiting someone through debt. Though "refusing to roll over a loan" might count, if you have first made a country dependent.
      - lazyasciiart 2y ago
        The conditions imposed on countries in order to receive a loan are usually the problem.
- vladms 2y ago
  America fucks itself as much as others. Some countries do resist against all odds, examples: Afghanistan fought both Russia and USA and won; Vietnam had wars with both USA and China (1979) and also won. Some countries prefer a side because of inherent affinities. I find the idea of "superpowers" (or very specific values) more of a Hollywood invention to make people afraid and docile. Yes, some countries do have resources and influence, but lots of times things don't go the way they plan it (values or otherwise).
  - netsharc 2y ago
    I wonder what the situation in Iraq is like now... reading the book "Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone" 1), I got the impression Rumsfeld and Cheney metaphorically drove the car of US power into a concrete wall at full speed in Iraq, by bungling about what happens after they take over the country. They expected a welcome with flowers (like Putin expected in Ukraine) and didn't have a plan for nation building. In the early stages there was even bickering about if the State Departmen or Pentagon was in charge. Needless to say, Afghanistan was a mess too. This article (2) sort of summarizes the entire US occupation. People now think George W. Bush was an OK president (thanks Donnie), but he really did fuck things up big time. I suppose Bin Laden is grinning in his grave, someone's said that 9/11 cost Al Qaida about 500K to stage, if the goal is the destruction of America, what an ROI that's still returning. 1) https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/book_review/imperial-life-emerald-city-inside-baghdad%E2%80%99s-green-zone https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/book_review/imperial-life-eme... 2) https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afghan-women https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/the-other-afgh... / https://archive.is/VfRmL https://archive.is/VfRmL
    - wat10000 2y ago
      It’s amazing to think about how much hinged on 537 votes in Florida. W could have been merely mediocre, but he was presented with a crisis and proceeded to mismanage it horribly.
- dash2 2y ago
  This idea of moral equivalence is popular and extremely dangerous. It is what Trump expressed as "you think we're so innocent?" No countries are purely altruistic, but there is a big space between pure altruism and simply being exploitative. This ignores the role of norms in foreign policy. For example, think of how the US attitude to the Taliban was (and still is) conditioned by the differences in their beliefs about women in society. If you think it doesn't matter whether America or China is in charge, you will be in for a shock. These countries have deeply different values, and their foreign policy will express that. I note also that you didn't mention Russia. I think it is obvious that Ukraine is not indifferent between being "exploited" by Russia and by the US.
dismalaf 2y ago
> Chinese values are worth spreading over American ones. Well the US seems to be allying itself with a murderous dictator and threatening to annex it's neighbours. China is less murderous than Russia, less warmongering and for those of us in Canada/EU, probably more reliable than a potentially fully-fascist US.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  And that's why you carry out politically motivated arrests of Chinese citizens on orders from the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_case_of_Meng_Wanzhou https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_case_of_Meng_Wan...
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    I mean, this wasn't particularly popular in Canada at the time. And yes, we did it for who we thought was our biggest ally, and the fallout definitely wasn't worth it, considering the charges were eventually dropped. Living in Canada and having European family I can tell you the attitudes towards both the US and China have shifted a lot recently.
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      The media at the time certainly disagreed: you were a "Chinese spy" if you doubted the wisdom of this arrest. Earlier, Chretien was called a traitor for not joining the war in Iraq (though history would show the wisdom of this decision later). Basically, Canada's recent history was the US saying "jump!" and Canada asking "how high?"
- kulahan 2y ago
  China has active concen— er, “reeducation camps” for specific religious minorities. Others are required to replace photos of their icon with photos of Xi Jinping. The man implemented social credit scores and will warn neighbors of your bad behavior, to include encouraging shunning you. Dropping the score low enough is enough to get you banned from trains and planes. Political dissidents, highly respected lawmakers, and billionaires can disappear from public at the pleasure of the president. I sincerely hope you were simply speaking out of ignorance.

deadbabe 2y ago

What China is doing is basically usury, it’s not the same. Stop glorifying China.