6 ms·

I agree. The article didn't touch on this aspect, but we're now at the point where even authentic recordings could be plausibly denied and claimed to be fake. S

I agree. The article didn't touch on this aspect, but we're now at the point where even authentic recordings could be plausibly denied and claimed to be fake. So the entire usage of recordings as evidence will suffer a hit. We may essentially be knocked back to an 18th century level of reliance on eyewitness testimony. One wonders what the consequences for justice will be.

Ukv 2y ago
I wouldn't say we'd be quite back to pre-photo evidence days. I feel a lot if not most of the value in a video/audio recording is not just that the medium has traditionally been difficult to edit, but that it's attesting to a lot of details with high specificity. There's a lot to potentially get caught out on with not a lot of wiggle room when inconsistencies are spotted (compared to recalling from memory). Document scans and static images are still useful despite having long been trivial to edit, for instance.
- dartos 2y ago
  I think forensic analysis of photographs would reveal pretty quickly if they’re AI anyway. AI images of real life still don’t pass intense scrutiny.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    And we have been able to edit photos nearly as long as we have been able to make them. Yet photo evidence continues being useful
    - philipov 2y ago
      I won't deny that genAI is still a long way from passing the strictest scrutiny, but I don't like the above argument. Ease of use is not a trivial matter, and extreme advances in accessibility can cause a phase-change. Photo evidence continues to be useful because editing photos is below the critical threshold for becoming a problem. If it becomes easy, low-skill, and reliable, at that point we will cross into the realm of Reasonable Doubt. It's the difference between possible, and practical, and pervasive.
  - throwway120385 2y ago
    It's just another thing you'll have to pay for as the defendant.
  - ykonstant 2y ago
    Right... forensics, the famously reliable discipline.
    - dartos 2y ago
      You can entirely remove the word “forensics” and my statement would be the same…
datadrivenangel 2y ago
Digital forensics will continue to be an in-demand skill!
nine_k 2y ago
I can easily imagine a future where video evidence is only acceptable in the form of chemically developed analog film, at resolutions that are prohibitively expensive to model, and audio recordings of any kind are not admissible as evidence at all. Signatures on paper, faxes, etc are, of course, inadmissible, too.
- pmontra 2y ago
  The point of a signature on paper is that (at least in my country) you can summon somebody in court and ask "is this your signature"? If they say it is, it is, even if it does not look much like any of their other signatures. Then there might be a suspect of false testimony or being blackmailed etc but that's not always the most important issue in a case. E.g.: if it is a contract and all the signers state that they agree with its terms, then there is no much else to discuss.
thereddaikon 2y ago
There's already a process for this, its called chain of custody. If you cant prove the evidence has a solid chain of custody then it was potentially tampered with and isn't reliable.
- LPisGood 2y ago
  This is unironically a usecase for blockchain.
  - adiabatichottub 2y ago
    Who needs a whole blockchain? Just basic public-key cryptography would do the job. Imagine if you will, that the NVR (recording system) has a unique private key flashed in during manufacturing, with the corresponding public key printed on it's nameplate. The device can sign a video clip and its related meta-data before exporting. Now, any decent hacker could see possible holes in this system, but it could be made tamper-resistant enough that any non-expert wouldn't be able to fabricate a signed video. Then the evidence becomes the signed video and the NVR's serial number and public key. Not perfect, but probably good enough.
    - hippari2 2y ago
      Unfortunately consumer devices often have weak cryptography built into them. The one properly implemented are just out of reach for average consumer.
  - CMCDragonkai 2y ago
    More than just a blockchain, you need a decentralized set of oracles to mutually corroborate information. https://polykey.com/blog/ai-detection-versus-cryptographic-provenance https://polykey.com/blog/ai-detection-versus-cryptographic-p...
- mrandish 2y ago
  Yep, "chain of custody." Came here hoping to see that concept discussed since it's how the system already deals with cases of potential evidence tampering. If the evidence is of material importance and there's no sufficiently credible chain of custody, then its validity can be questioned. The concept started around purely physical evidence but applies to image, audio and video. The good thing about the ubiquity of deepfake memes on social media is that it familiarizes judges and juries with how easy it now is to create plausible fake media.
AyyEye 2y ago
> we're now at the point where even authentic recordings could be plausibly denied and claimed to be fake. We've been there for at least two years. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/judge-slams-tesla-for-claiming-musk-quotes-captured-on-video-may-be-deepfakes/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/judge-slams-tesl...

Ukv 2y ago

I wouldn't say we'd be quite back to pre-photo evidence days. I feel a lot if not most of the value in a video/audio recording is not just that the medium has traditionally been difficult to edit, but that it's attesting to a lot of details with high specificity. There's a lot to potentially get caught out on with not a lot of wiggle room when inconsistencies are spotted (compared to recalling from memory). Document scans and static images are still useful despite having long been trivial to edit, for instance.

dartos 2y ago
I think forensic analysis of photographs would reveal pretty quickly if they’re AI anyway. AI images of real life still don’t pass intense scrutiny.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  And we have been able to edit photos nearly as long as we have been able to make them. Yet photo evidence continues being useful
  - philipov 2y ago
    I won't deny that genAI is still a long way from passing the strictest scrutiny, but I don't like the above argument. Ease of use is not a trivial matter, and extreme advances in accessibility can cause a phase-change. Photo evidence continues to be useful because editing photos is below the critical threshold for becoming a problem. If it becomes easy, low-skill, and reliable, at that point we will cross into the realm of Reasonable Doubt. It's the difference between possible, and practical, and pervasive.
- throwway120385 2y ago
  It's just another thing you'll have to pay for as the defendant.
- ykonstant 2y ago
  Right... forensics, the famously reliable discipline.
  - dartos 2y ago
    You can entirely remove the word “forensics” and my statement would be the same…

datadrivenangel 2y ago

Digital forensics will continue to be an in-demand skill!

nine_k 2y ago

I can easily imagine a future where video evidence is only acceptable in the form of chemically developed analog film, at resolutions that are prohibitively expensive to model, and audio recordings of any kind are not admissible as evidence at all. Signatures on paper, faxes, etc are, of course, inadmissible, too.

pmontra 2y ago
The point of a signature on paper is that (at least in my country) you can summon somebody in court and ask "is this your signature"? If they say it is, it is, even if it does not look much like any of their other signatures. Then there might be a suspect of false testimony or being blackmailed etc but that's not always the most important issue in a case. E.g.: if it is a contract and all the signers state that they agree with its terms, then there is no much else to discuss.

thereddaikon 2y ago

There's already a process for this, its called chain of custody. If you cant prove the evidence has a solid chain of custody then it was potentially tampered with and isn't reliable.

LPisGood 2y ago
This is unironically a usecase for blockchain.
- adiabatichottub 2y ago
  Who needs a whole blockchain? Just basic public-key cryptography would do the job. Imagine if you will, that the NVR (recording system) has a unique private key flashed in during manufacturing, with the corresponding public key printed on it's nameplate. The device can sign a video clip and its related meta-data before exporting. Now, any decent hacker could see possible holes in this system, but it could be made tamper-resistant enough that any non-expert wouldn't be able to fabricate a signed video. Then the evidence becomes the signed video and the NVR's serial number and public key. Not perfect, but probably good enough.
  - hippari2 2y ago
    Unfortunately consumer devices often have weak cryptography built into them. The one properly implemented are just out of reach for average consumer.
- CMCDragonkai 2y ago
  More than just a blockchain, you need a decentralized set of oracles to mutually corroborate information. https://polykey.com/blog/ai-detection-versus-cryptographic-provenance https://polykey.com/blog/ai-detection-versus-cryptographic-p...
mrandish 2y ago
Yep, "chain of custody." Came here hoping to see that concept discussed since it's how the system already deals with cases of potential evidence tampering. If the evidence is of material importance and there's no sufficiently credible chain of custody, then its validity can be questioned. The concept started around purely physical evidence but applies to image, audio and video. The good thing about the ubiquity of deepfake memes on social media is that it familiarizes judges and juries with how easy it now is to create plausible fake media.

AyyEye 2y ago

> we're now at the point where even authentic recordings could be plausibly denied and claimed to be fake. We've been there for at least two years. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/judge-slams-tesla-for-claiming-musk-quotes-captured-on-video-may-be-deepfakes/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/judge-slams-tesl...