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> I consider code bad if it takes more then 5 seconds to read and understand the high level goal of a function. That's something that's possible only for fairl

by ajross 2y ago

> I consider code bad if it takes more then 5 seconds to read and understand the high level goal of a function. That's something that's possible only for fairly trivial logic, though. Real code needs to be built on an internal "language" reflecting its invariants and data model and that's not something you can see with a microscope. IMHO obsessive attention to microscope qualities (endless style nitpicking in code review, demands to run clang-format or whatever the tool du jour is on all submissions, style guides that limit function length, etc...) hurts and doesn't help. Good code, as the grandparent points out, is a heuristic quality and not one well-defined by rules like yours.

zwnow 2y ago
I even wrote no matter how it looks? I meant the goal of your function needs to be grasped within a reasonable amount of time. This works for every codebase.
- ajross 2y ago
  > I meant the goal of your function needs to be grasped within a reasonable amount of time. This works for every codebase. It really doesn't though. Here's a function of mine. It's maybe 40 lines of logic, so medium-scale. It's part of an intrusive red/black tree implementation for Zephyr. I'm fairly proud of how it turned out, and think that this code is awfully readable given its constraints. No human being is going to understand fix_extra_red() without having already read and understood the rest of the file, and coming to it with an understanding of the underlying algorithm. Certainly I can't. I can't even get started on maintaining this code that I originally wrote within a five minute time frame, it's an hour at least every time, just to remind myself how it works: https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/lib/utils/rb.c#L153 https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/lib/u... Now maybe this is "bad code", and "good code" could exist for this problem that still meets your requirements. But... if so that's an awfully celestial definition if it's so hard to find.
  - sunrunner 2y ago
    This is exactly the kind of example I have in my head for code that constitutes a high level of information density. Adding abstraction and 'literate' constructs to try and make things readable is ultimately deferring the fact that understanding the code here is fundamentally about understanding a specific implementation of an algorithm, and to understand _that_ ultimately needs the reader to build their own clear mental model of both the algorithm itself and how it's been translated into a specific form. Maybe it's a defeatist attitude, but I feel like sometimes the problem is the problem, and pushing abstractions only works to defer the requirements to understand it. Sometimes you can defer it enough to do useful work, other times you just need to understand the thing.
    - whstl 2y ago
      > Maybe it's a defeatist attitude, but I feel like sometimes the problem is the problem, and pushing abstractions only works to defer the requirements to understand it That's also my impression and experience. And sometimes there is no problem at all, but abstractions are still pushed too far and then a problem arises in the form of non-essential complexity.
necrotic_comp 2y ago
I agree with this up to a point - having consistent code style with some sort of formatter (gofmt, black, clang-format) goes a long way to reducing complexity of understanding because it unifies visual style. I suggest that a codebase should read like a newspaper. While there is room for op-eds in the paper, it's not all op-eds, everything else should read as a single voice.
- ajross 2y ago
  > While there is room for op-eds in the paper, My experience is that projects which value code formatters (and similar rulemaking) tend strongly not to have room for "op-eds", FWIW. And conversely the code bases I've seen with the best/cleanest/most-clearly-expressive code tend strongly to be the ones with fewer rules. I think the one exception there is in some open source contexts (Linux is the archetype) which receive a fire hose of submissions of questionable quality and maintainership. There, you can use adherence to arbitrary rules as a proxy measurement[1] for attention and effort on the part of the submitter. And that I have no problem with. But the actual value of code formatters is IMHO extremely low in practice, and the cost isn't "high", but is non-trivial. [1] The "No Brown M&M's" trick.

by ajross 2y ago

zwnow 2y ago

I even wrote no matter how it looks? I meant the goal of your function needs to be grasped within a reasonable amount of time. This works for every codebase.

ajross 2y ago
> I meant the goal of your function needs to be grasped within a reasonable amount of time. This works for every codebase. It really doesn't though. Here's a function of mine. It's maybe 40 lines of logic, so medium-scale. It's part of an intrusive red/black tree implementation for Zephyr. I'm fairly proud of how it turned out, and think that this code is awfully readable given its constraints. No human being is going to understand fix_extra_red() without having already read and understood the rest of the file, and coming to it with an understanding of the underlying algorithm. Certainly I can't. I can't even get started on maintaining this code that I originally wrote within a five minute time frame, it's an hour at least every time, just to remind myself how it works: https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/lib/utils/rb.c#L153 https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/lib/u... Now maybe this is "bad code", and "good code" could exist for this problem that still meets your requirements. But... if so that's an awfully celestial definition if it's so hard to find.
- sunrunner 2y ago
  This is exactly the kind of example I have in my head for code that constitutes a high level of information density. Adding abstraction and 'literate' constructs to try and make things readable is ultimately deferring the fact that understanding the code here is fundamentally about understanding a specific implementation of an algorithm, and to understand _that_ ultimately needs the reader to build their own clear mental model of both the algorithm itself and how it's been translated into a specific form. Maybe it's a defeatist attitude, but I feel like sometimes the problem is the problem, and pushing abstractions only works to defer the requirements to understand it. Sometimes you can defer it enough to do useful work, other times you just need to understand the thing.
  - whstl 2y ago
    > Maybe it's a defeatist attitude, but I feel like sometimes the problem is the problem, and pushing abstractions only works to defer the requirements to understand it That's also my impression and experience. And sometimes there is no problem at all, but abstractions are still pushed too far and then a problem arises in the form of non-essential complexity.

necrotic_comp 2y ago

I agree with this up to a point - having consistent code style with some sort of formatter (gofmt, black, clang-format) goes a long way to reducing complexity of understanding because it unifies visual style. I suggest that a codebase should read like a newspaper. While there is room for op-eds in the paper, it's not all op-eds, everything else should read as a single voice.

ajross 2y ago
> While there is room for op-eds in the paper, My experience is that projects which value code formatters (and similar rulemaking) tend strongly not to have room for "op-eds", FWIW. And conversely the code bases I've seen with the best/cleanest/most-clearly-expressive code tend strongly to be the ones with fewer rules. I think the one exception there is in some open source contexts (Linux is the archetype) which receive a fire hose of submissions of questionable quality and maintainership. There, you can use adherence to arbitrary rules as a proxy measurement[1] for attention and effort on the part of the submitter. And that I have no problem with. But the actual value of code formatters is IMHO extremely low in practice, and the cost isn't "high", but is non-trivial. [1] The "No Brown M&M's" trick.