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> They're (verified) anecdotes showing the British Crown was embarrassed Again, to be clear, this anecdote is not verified. It is extremely poorly sourced, not

> They're (verified) anecdotes showing the British Crown was embarrassed Again, to be clear, this anecdote is not verified. It is extremely poorly sourced, not much more than an urban legend. The only attribution for the story dating to the 19th century is a claim that someone heard it from the sultan's physician's son, and that claim is put forward more than 40 years after the events. The existence of donations, verified or otherwise, does not independently show that the British government attempted to prevent aid from reaching Ireland because they were embarrassed about how little they had contributed. That is the claim that OP puts forward with their story, that is the claim that I'm responding to. I'm not questioning that others did send donations or that some of those donations exceeded those put forward by the British government. All of that is true, but it being true does not justify perpetuating unsubstantiated stories that happen to support the same conclusion. As you have amply demonstrated, there's enough good evidence in favor of the conclusion that we don't need to rely on bad evidence.

smcin 2y ago
> > They're (verified) anecdotes showing the British Crown was embarrassed "They" in my sentence clearly refers to "(or the Choctaw US$170/£111"... or Calcutta 1846 £14,000 donations" - not the Ottoman Sultan's generous donation or the anecdote about being pressured by the Crown to reduce it. > The existence of donations, verified or otherwise, does not independently show that the British government attempted to prevent aid from reaching Ireland because they were embarrassed about how little they had contributed. That is the claim that OP puts forward with their story, that is to claim that I'm responding to. But it's also claimed the Sultan's ships had to sail secretly, and north of Dublin to Drogheda, instead of simply unloading in Dublin, which would be faster and infinitely more logical (because the famine areas were in the west/southwest/south, not the northeast). So no, that would be a second piece of corroboration that he had needed to make the donation secretly (Why? Unless he had a fetish for being the Bruce Wayne of the 1840s. It makes no sense unless there was a reason.) If I ever get a time machine I guess I'm dialing it to Sultan Abdülmecid's and Queen Victoria's residences in 1847 to plant listening devices to settle this for once and all. :) But either way, even if the Ottomans never existed, the British Crown response was embarrassing, everything else is a sidebar. This all feels like it needs an AI treatment starring Joan Sims as Queen Victoria in one of the British "Carry On" comedies, and Syd James as the Sultan, and Paul Whitehouse ("Ralph and Ted") as token Irish tenant farmer. "Carry On Famine Relief".
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lolinder 2y ago
  > "They" in my sentence clearly refers to "(or the Choctaw US$170/£111"... or Calcutta 1846 £14,000 donations" - not the Ottoman Sultan's generous donation or the anecdote about being pressured by the Crown to reduce it. Oh, I was interpreting your comment as relevant to mine rather than completely tangential. My mistake, as you were.
  - smcin 2y ago
    My comment is directly responsive to yours (and you now have triplicate threads where you're repeatedly challenging why): under all circumstances the Crown's response was inadequate, and disputing the anecdote about the Crown allegedly pressuring the Sultan to reduce his donation is an unnecessary sidebar to reaching that exact conclusion. Further I showed you an independent piece of corroboration about whether the Sultan had to donate in secret, so it's absolutely not single-sourced to "one anecdote forty lears later by the Sultan's son." Here's more corroboration by Drogheda people (and former President McAleese) that the Ottoman famine relief ships did in fact land in Drogheda (and inexplicably, not Dublin): https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/ireland-remembers-how-19th-century-aid-from-sultan-abdulmejid-changed-fate-of-thousands/1734689 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/ireland-remembers-how-19th-c... Since there is zero reason to waste time sailing urgently-needed food aid ships north past Dublin to a smaller port (Drogheda) from which it would take longer to distribute, that raises the obvious question why they did that. Go look at any map of Ireland to verify that, instead of mocking that.
    - xinuc 2y ago
      As they say, you can not make a blind man see

smcin 2y ago

> > They're (verified) anecdotes showing the British Crown was embarrassed "They" in my sentence clearly refers to "(or the Choctaw US$170/£111"... or Calcutta 1846 £14,000 donations" - not the Ottoman Sultan's generous donation or the anecdote about being pressured by the Crown to reduce it. > The existence of donations, verified or otherwise, does not independently show that the British government attempted to prevent aid from reaching Ireland because they were embarrassed about how little they had contributed. That is the claim that OP puts forward with their story, that is to claim that I'm responding to. But it's also claimed the Sultan's ships had to sail secretly, and north of Dublin to Drogheda, instead of simply unloading in Dublin, which would be faster and infinitely more logical (because the famine areas were in the west/southwest/south, not the northeast). So no, that would be a second piece of corroboration that he had needed to make the donation secretly (Why? Unless he had a fetish for being the Bruce Wayne of the 1840s. It makes no sense unless there was a reason.) If I ever get a time machine I guess I'm dialing it to Sultan Abdülmecid's and Queen Victoria's residences in 1847 to plant listening devices to settle this for once and all. :) But either way, even if the Ottomans never existed, the British Crown response was embarrassing, everything else is a sidebar. This all feels like it needs an AI treatment starring Joan Sims as Queen Victoria in one of the British "Carry On" comedies, and Syd James as the Sultan, and Paul Whitehouse ("Ralph and Ted") as token Irish tenant farmer. "Carry On Famine Relief".

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lolinder 2y ago
> "They" in my sentence clearly refers to "(or the Choctaw US$170/£111"... or Calcutta 1846 £14,000 donations" - not the Ottoman Sultan's generous donation or the anecdote about being pressured by the Crown to reduce it. Oh, I was interpreting your comment as relevant to mine rather than completely tangential. My mistake, as you were.
- smcin 2y ago
  My comment is directly responsive to yours (and you now have triplicate threads where you're repeatedly challenging why): under all circumstances the Crown's response was inadequate, and disputing the anecdote about the Crown allegedly pressuring the Sultan to reduce his donation is an unnecessary sidebar to reaching that exact conclusion. Further I showed you an independent piece of corroboration about whether the Sultan had to donate in secret, so it's absolutely not single-sourced to "one anecdote forty lears later by the Sultan's son." Here's more corroboration by Drogheda people (and former President McAleese) that the Ottoman famine relief ships did in fact land in Drogheda (and inexplicably, not Dublin): https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/ireland-remembers-how-19th-century-aid-from-sultan-abdulmejid-changed-fate-of-thousands/1734689 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/ireland-remembers-how-19th-c... Since there is zero reason to waste time sailing urgently-needed food aid ships north past Dublin to a smaller port (Drogheda) from which it would take longer to distribute, that raises the obvious question why they did that. Go look at any map of Ireland to verify that, instead of mocking that.
  - xinuc 2y ago
    As they say, you can not make a blind man see