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> Wow it's pretty difficult to try talking with you. i.e. resort to personal attacks? If you have a valid point I genuinely don't understand why you can't disc

by re-thc 2y ago

> Wow it's pretty difficult to try talking with you. i.e. resort to personal attacks? If you have a valid point I genuinely don't understand why you can't discuss the actual matter at hand. > don't understand that there may be nuance in what I am saying, or if you're just manipulating for the sport The problem is you're taking Western media reports at face value and for granted. There are nuances and it is in what you see and hear. I mean the Chinese at some point loved Western goods - likely way more than your "allies". Tesla had a large % of sales there. > Europe/Canada much less so, because until 2025 they considered the US as allies! Will Captain America come around? It's not a movie. The real world never works like this. No 1 blindly assume as so and the EU themselves have gladly in the past gone against "their ally" on many policies including on China. US has never really helped any nation "for free". You just might not know what they want or got out of it.

palata 2y ago
> I mean the Chinese at some point loved Western goods And they stopped loving them in the last 2 months because of the US, is that what you are trying to say? Why do you think Tesla sales are going down in China? > and the EU themselves have gladly in the past gone against "their ally" Are you comparing "disagreeing on some policies regarding a third-party country" and "threatening to invade militarily"? I am not sure you actually understand what is being said to Canada/EU: Trump is talking about sending the US military to invade Canada and the EU (and others). When is the last time Canada/EU threatened to invade the US?
- re-thc 2y ago
  > And they stopped loving them in the last 2 months because of the US, is that what you are trying to say? And the others suddenly started hating on the US? Is that what you're saying? Because of the media? i.e. if someone says it on TV its true and not otherwise? > I am not sure you actually understand what is being said to Canada/EU I'm not sure why we're still discussing media appearances that you are fixated on. Trump has said a certain someone is a dictator and then said he never said it. He's just doing publicly what likely goes on privately. Just because the last president never spoke about it in public doesn't mean it wasn't considered either. I doubt any government works purely based on press releases and the media. Actual intelligent agencies are equipped to analyze threats not what is spout on TV.
  - palata 2y ago
    Oh, I see. You believe that the people in Canada/EU don't hate the US right now, and that the fact that the media say it (whether in the US or in Canada/EU) doesn't mean it's true. You believe that the people in Canada/EU are not actually scared by the repeated threats of military invasion by the US. And you believe that Tesla sales going down in the EU is not necessarily related to that, because there is no reason why people in the EU would hate Tesla. Do I get this right?
    - re-thc 2y ago
      > You believe that the people in Canada/EU don't hate the US right now, and that the fact that the media say it (whether in the US or in Canada/EU) doesn't mean it's true. Yes, because for it (sudden hate of US) to happen I'd need to believe everyone in Canada / EU to be extremely naive. US has always been the US. Nothing has changed no matter what Trump says. As history has proven e.g. US never went to Iraq to save the world. It was for their own gains and that's fine. It's very reactionary to suddenly hate them. So if the next day the US gives EU / Canada freebies you'll be best friends again? That's a joke. > You believe that the people in Canada/EU are not actually scared by the repeated threats of military invasion by the US. If they were, they should have did something about it years ago - not now all of a sudden. Again, US did not suddenly wake up and become "evil". > And you believe that Tesla sales going down in the EU is not necessarily related to that, because there is no reason why people in the EU would hate Tesla. Tesla sales have been going down a while already. Not everyone is 24/7 into politics. Lots of people buy cars for a need and pick the best 1. Tesla simply hasn't been performing (even before this drama). Don't complicate the situation.
      - palata 2y ago
        That explains your position, thanks a lot for the insights! I wish you were right, but what I feel and observe is different. Let me try to explain: > US never went to Iraq to save the world. It was for their own gains and that's fine. I assume you don't have any problem thinking that the people in Iraq is not super fond of the US, given that the US have not only invaded them but also destabilised the region. Maybe it was fine for the US, it was not for Iraq. > It's very reactionary to suddenly hate them. If many americans think like you, it probably explains a big disconnect between americans and non-americans: from the outside, this time it's serious. During his first term, Trump was saying a lot of stuff that never materialised. This time is different. First, it is sudden in terms of timeline, but it's not just one small reason. The US government is being hostile across the board. By starting an economical war, by threatening to invade or to annex, by suddenly destroying a decades-old military alliance (NATO), by changing side in an active war, by actively and openly destabilising democracies (not with the CIA, but by e.g. overtly supporting neo-nazis and bribery) and many others. In my whole life, not only I have never seen anything close to that, but I did not actually imagine it could happen. This time is very different. Since the beginning of the mandate, every single day brings new hostile behaviours. "The US is destroying its own institutions? Well... that sounds weird, but apparently the people support that, it's their choice. But the US is actively trying to hurt us and the people support that? Not okay". Europeans, Canadians (and others of course) genuinely feel threatened. People are anxious. What happens if we get into a global war soon, with the US on the side of the authoritarian regimes? Most of the military equipment in Europe is at least related to the US, and the US now looks like they are on Russia's side. Maybe you don't believe it. Maybe you believe that Trump is playing 4D chess and is not letting Ukraine and Europe down. That would explain our disconnect. But let me tell you: people in Europe believe that the US is not on their side anymore, and that's genuinely scary. > So if the next day the US gives EU / Canada freebies you'll be best friends again? That's a joke. I think it happened in the past: the US would abuse their dominant position, then give freebies and all would be okay. That was the norm, people were used to it. This time, I think the US has deeply broken the trust. It's not your good friend who got drunk and insulted you again, it's your good friend who slept with your wife and seriously pointed a gun at you: a whole different level. Not really a friend anymore. > Again, US did not suddenly wake up and become "evil". Probably not. But Europe woke up to see that it was suddenly okay for those in power in the US to make nazi salutes, and the people seem fine with it. I understand that people in the US don't realise how badly that is perceived in Europe. A nazi salute is a line pretty much everywhere in Europe. It is extremely violent. > Not everyone is 24/7 into politics. That's where I think you are completely disconnected from what is happening in Europe. Maybe in the US that is still the case: "Let's see if Trump makes America great in the next 6 months, it's worth trying". In Europe, this is the biggest concern right now. People are genuinely scared about the war and the fact that the US now seem to be on Russia's side, with Russia threatening all of Europe and with the US potentially waiting for that to invade European territories on the other side. > Don't complicate the situation. Don't under-estimate it. Many people in the West try to avoid the news these days. Not because they don't care, but because they are scared.

by re-thc 2y ago

palata 2y ago

> I mean the Chinese at some point loved Western goods And they stopped loving them in the last 2 months because of the US, is that what you are trying to say? Why do you think Tesla sales are going down in China? > and the EU themselves have gladly in the past gone against "their ally" Are you comparing "disagreeing on some policies regarding a third-party country" and "threatening to invade militarily"? I am not sure you actually understand what is being said to Canada/EU: Trump is talking about sending the US military to invade Canada and the EU (and others). When is the last time Canada/EU threatened to invade the US?

re-thc 2y ago
> And they stopped loving them in the last 2 months because of the US, is that what you are trying to say? And the others suddenly started hating on the US? Is that what you're saying? Because of the media? i.e. if someone says it on TV its true and not otherwise? > I am not sure you actually understand what is being said to Canada/EU I'm not sure why we're still discussing media appearances that you are fixated on. Trump has said a certain someone is a dictator and then said he never said it. He's just doing publicly what likely goes on privately. Just because the last president never spoke about it in public doesn't mean it wasn't considered either. I doubt any government works purely based on press releases and the media. Actual intelligent agencies are equipped to analyze threats not what is spout on TV.
- palata 2y ago
  Oh, I see. You believe that the people in Canada/EU don't hate the US right now, and that the fact that the media say it (whether in the US or in Canada/EU) doesn't mean it's true. You believe that the people in Canada/EU are not actually scared by the repeated threats of military invasion by the US. And you believe that Tesla sales going down in the EU is not necessarily related to that, because there is no reason why people in the EU would hate Tesla. Do I get this right?
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > You believe that the people in Canada/EU don't hate the US right now, and that the fact that the media say it (whether in the US or in Canada/EU) doesn't mean it's true. Yes, because for it (sudden hate of US) to happen I'd need to believe everyone in Canada / EU to be extremely naive. US has always been the US. Nothing has changed no matter what Trump says. As history has proven e.g. US never went to Iraq to save the world. It was for their own gains and that's fine. It's very reactionary to suddenly hate them. So if the next day the US gives EU / Canada freebies you'll be best friends again? That's a joke. > You believe that the people in Canada/EU are not actually scared by the repeated threats of military invasion by the US. If they were, they should have did something about it years ago - not now all of a sudden. Again, US did not suddenly wake up and become "evil". > And you believe that Tesla sales going down in the EU is not necessarily related to that, because there is no reason why people in the EU would hate Tesla. Tesla sales have been going down a while already. Not everyone is 24/7 into politics. Lots of people buy cars for a need and pick the best 1. Tesla simply hasn't been performing (even before this drama). Don't complicate the situation.
    - palata 2y ago
      That explains your position, thanks a lot for the insights! I wish you were right, but what I feel and observe is different. Let me try to explain: > US never went to Iraq to save the world. It was for their own gains and that's fine. I assume you don't have any problem thinking that the people in Iraq is not super fond of the US, given that the US have not only invaded them but also destabilised the region. Maybe it was fine for the US, it was not for Iraq. > It's very reactionary to suddenly hate them. If many americans think like you, it probably explains a big disconnect between americans and non-americans: from the outside, this time it's serious. During his first term, Trump was saying a lot of stuff that never materialised. This time is different. First, it is sudden in terms of timeline, but it's not just one small reason. The US government is being hostile across the board. By starting an economical war, by threatening to invade or to annex, by suddenly destroying a decades-old military alliance (NATO), by changing side in an active war, by actively and openly destabilising democracies (not with the CIA, but by e.g. overtly supporting neo-nazis and bribery) and many others. In my whole life, not only I have never seen anything close to that, but I did not actually imagine it could happen. This time is very different. Since the beginning of the mandate, every single day brings new hostile behaviours. "The US is destroying its own institutions? Well... that sounds weird, but apparently the people support that, it's their choice. But the US is actively trying to hurt us and the people support that? Not okay". Europeans, Canadians (and others of course) genuinely feel threatened. People are anxious. What happens if we get into a global war soon, with the US on the side of the authoritarian regimes? Most of the military equipment in Europe is at least related to the US, and the US now looks like they are on Russia's side. Maybe you don't believe it. Maybe you believe that Trump is playing 4D chess and is not letting Ukraine and Europe down. That would explain our disconnect. But let me tell you: people in Europe believe that the US is not on their side anymore, and that's genuinely scary. > So if the next day the US gives EU / Canada freebies you'll be best friends again? That's a joke. I think it happened in the past: the US would abuse their dominant position, then give freebies and all would be okay. That was the norm, people were used to it. This time, I think the US has deeply broken the trust. It's not your good friend who got drunk and insulted you again, it's your good friend who slept with your wife and seriously pointed a gun at you: a whole different level. Not really a friend anymore. > Again, US did not suddenly wake up and become "evil". Probably not. But Europe woke up to see that it was suddenly okay for those in power in the US to make nazi salutes, and the people seem fine with it. I understand that people in the US don't realise how badly that is perceived in Europe. A nazi salute is a line pretty much everywhere in Europe. It is extremely violent. > Not everyone is 24/7 into politics. That's where I think you are completely disconnected from what is happening in Europe. Maybe in the US that is still the case: "Let's see if Trump makes America great in the next 6 months, it's worth trying". In Europe, this is the biggest concern right now. People are genuinely scared about the war and the fact that the US now seem to be on Russia's side, with Russia threatening all of Europe and with the US potentially waiting for that to invade European territories on the other side. > Don't complicate the situation. Don't under-estimate it. Many people in the West try to avoid the news these days. Not because they don't care, but because they are scared.