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> focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs Everyone focuses on bringing them back, because you're correct that it resonates. However, what goes unsaid is th

> focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs Everyone focuses on bringing them back, because you're correct that it resonates. However, what goes unsaid is that everyone hopes it'll be someone else going to work in those factories. > You can't be a citizen in a participatory democracy if you're not needed. The cognitive elites that call half the country "deplorables" might choose to give you a dole, but they'll hold it over your head and it'll come with strings attached. The 'cognitive elites' never called half the country deplorables. One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. The (Number of Trump Voters) * 0.5 is nowhere near half the country. This is of course a derail from the derail, which is the claim that you can't be a citizen if you're not 'needed.' You can be and are, and 'needed' is a value judgement by the ruling class who can divide and conquer the citizenry by manufacturing mass media telling citizens who is 'needed' and who is not.

rayiner 2y ago
> One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. According to whose value system? By the standards of your typical knowledge worker, almost everyone in my home country of Bangladesh is “racist/homophobic/sexist.” But why do they get to decide? You can bet that in your hypothetical, the cognitive elite will use their leverage over the government dole to impose their value system on everyone else. Who is “needed” is not a “value judgment” it’s a structural fact about the economy. In a future where the machines make all the goods, you’ll need cognitive elites to operate and maintain them. But most people won’t be needed. And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy—which necessarily includes development of social and moral norms.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy This is what the elites often assert before the mobs with guillotines, torches, pitchforks, etc come for them. Who gets to decide who is a participant? Ultimately it's the group that seizes power. You might think that a tiny group of despotic people can hold out against the overwhelming majority (South Africans sure tried, and some are still bitter that they failed at it) forever, but this type of thing never lasts, fortunately.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite, because they would control the machines that automated the production. South Africa actually illustrates the problem. Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country: a largely white, industrialized country participating in the globalized and financialized economy, and a largely black developing-nation economy. The black south africans cannot expel the whites, because the latter would take with them almost all industrial and agricultural technology.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      > You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite Just to review: the South African apartheid regime was famously overthrown, peacefully. > Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country Not where it matters. South Africans, no matter their ethnicity, all have the same vote and the same elected leadership. The place isn't perfect but it's no longer operating as a wholly morally repugnant regime. This is just one example, mind you. It's the whole "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" pattern. Despotic rule by a tiny minority never lasts, no matter what temporary technological advantages they might have.

rayiner 2y ago

> One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. According to whose value system? By the standards of your typical knowledge worker, almost everyone in my home country of Bangladesh is “racist/homophobic/sexist.” But why do they get to decide? You can bet that in your hypothetical, the cognitive elite will use their leverage over the government dole to impose their value system on everyone else. Who is “needed” is not a “value judgment” it’s a structural fact about the economy. In a future where the machines make all the goods, you’ll need cognitive elites to operate and maintain them. But most people won’t be needed. And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy—which necessarily includes development of social and moral norms.

mullingitover 2y ago
> And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy This is what the elites often assert before the mobs with guillotines, torches, pitchforks, etc come for them. Who gets to decide who is a participant? Ultimately it's the group that seizes power. You might think that a tiny group of despotic people can hold out against the overwhelming majority (South Africans sure tried, and some are still bitter that they failed at it) forever, but this type of thing never lasts, fortunately.
- rayiner 2y ago
  You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite, because they would control the machines that automated the production. South Africa actually illustrates the problem. Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country: a largely white, industrialized country participating in the globalized and financialized economy, and a largely black developing-nation economy. The black south africans cannot expel the whites, because the latter would take with them almost all industrial and agricultural technology.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite Just to review: the South African apartheid regime was famously overthrown, peacefully. > Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country Not where it matters. South Africans, no matter their ethnicity, all have the same vote and the same elected leadership. The place isn't perfect but it's no longer operating as a wholly morally repugnant regime. This is just one example, mind you. It's the whole "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice" pattern. Despotic rule by a tiny minority never lasts, no matter what temporary technological advantages they might have.