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Germany concerned over F-35 'kill switch' amid US policy shifts

51 points by pseudolus 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
elmerfud 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
PedroBatista 2y ago
The F-35 is the biggest Trojan horse but this problem has been getting bigger and bigger over the years. Everything dependent on GPS and even cruise missiles with components from another nation requiring the other nation to agree on the targets ( in general terms ). I’m talking about hugely expensive equipment “owned” but a country, not the other country refusing a new order. Ironically this has also been a similar problem inside the branches of the US Military, aka weapon DRM where the soldiers/technicians can’t even do a basic repair, they have to call “customer support”. The more the time passes the more the old truths make more sense: Never, ever be dependent on somebody else to defend yourself. Who knew the fricking France were right.. ;)
- rich_sasha 2y ago
  I'm not sure I would put GPS so high on the list. For one, there are many satellite navigation systems. US has GPS, Europe has Galileo, Russia has Glonass and China something else (I can't remember the name). Second, GPS is easy to jam, so actually a lot of important military stuff doesn't depend on it. There are some lower-cost precision munitions that do, and indeed in Ukraine they are increasingly less and less effective. But everyone is aware of this, and so while incredibly useful, it's not that critical for this reason.
apercu 2y ago
Well, that's one way to kill the U.S. military industrial complex.
- benoau 2y ago
  Or the EU.
  - benterix 2y ago
    Care to elaborate? The European military industry is getting stronger and stronger, and given the current situation basically all European countries prefer European military supplies to American ones.
ein0p 2y ago
German pensioners, get ready. The government you've just voted in is about to bleed you white to create a poor replacement. This is, after all, why we "don't have free healthcare" in the US. Or pensions, for that matter.
- Sabinus 2y ago
  German pensioners aren't silly enough to trust their protection to a belligerent and possibly compromised USA.
- EdwardDiego 2y ago
  No, your military isn't the reason you don't have free healthcare in the USA. You don't have free healthcare in the USA because of an ongoing concerted effort to prevent it happening by people and companies who make a nice profit from it not happening. This EP is from 1961, featuring the actor Ronald Reagan, and was played at coffee meetings of "concerned mothers" organised by the wives of American Medical Association members. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYrlDlrLDSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYrlDlrLDSQ As part of "Operation Coffee Cup". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Coffee_Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Coffee_Cup These kind of things are why you don't have free healthcare, anything that provides social good but challenges private profit is immediately labelled socialism by vested interests who have sufficient money to propagate their falsehoods. It always amazes me what a sufficient plurality of Americans label as socialism that other countries consider to be "a good investment in society".
- benjymo 2y ago
  The government just announced an increase in pension of 3.74%. I think they'll do ok.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    Von Der Leyen: "We will turn the private savings into much needed investments." :-)
dopidopHN 2y ago
That was a talking point in French newspaper when Germany bought those. While they could have bough perfectly fine Rafales. Tss
- ein0p 2y ago
  Wouldn't Rafale just have its own, French kill switch? Especially given the history between the two countries?
  - N19PEDL2 2y ago
    It is the US that has suddenly become unreliable.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      In 20th century France and Germany have been at each other's throats twice. That's what I'd call "unreliable". Merely telling Europe that the US can no longer fund its security, or entertain the EUs delusions of military grandeur (which is true - we're broke AF) is nothing in comparison to that. Do not think for a minute that anything is forgotten between the two countries - in Europe nothing is ever forgotten.
      - Tainnor 2y ago
        What nonsense is this? The friendship between Germany and France since the end of WWII is a resounding success story. There is no fundamental distrust between the two countries. > in Europe nothing is ever forgotten. "Not forgetting" and "harbouring a grudge" are two different things. It's precisely because we remember two devastating world wars that we're trying to foster cooperation in Europe.
        ein0p 2y ago
        Things change. And they will change. If history teaches us anything, it's that there's no such thing as permanent "trust" between countries.
credit_guy 2y ago
It was not a "kill switch". If you are able to service some military aircraft to such extent that you fly combat missions, you probably can identify any "kill switches" and work around them. Just look at Iran that is still flying the US made F-4s. What the US is doing with the F-16s in Ukraine is refusing to update the software on a jammer. The pace of technological evolution in the war is so extreme, that these jammers are in danger of becoming obsolete [1]: > But the Russian air force could sidestep the jamming by reprogramming their radars to operate at slightly different frequencies. Under Biden, the USAF team might’ve kept pace with Russian adaptation by constantly adjusting the AN/ALQ-131s own frequencies. Under Trump, Ukrainian airmen are stuck with pods whose programming may soon be out of date. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/07/france-to-the-rescue-french-made-mirage-2000-jets-could-become-ukraines-most-important-aerial-radar-jammers/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/07/france-to-t...
- hypothesis 2y ago
  > It was not a "kill switch". Software is famously a munition, so maybe call it lack of ammunition…
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Trying to use a >50 year old fighter jet as counter-example for "see, it's proven folks can maintain & keep their equipment running themselves" is a hilariously out-of-touch proposition to me. (65 year olds actually.) Who even cares about the jet by itself? Command and control (c2), c3, c4, up through c6isr (command, control, communications, computers, cyber-defense and combat systems and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance) is all part of what makes these tip of the spears useful. Theres a whole battlenet that has to be totally reconstituted for these jets to serve their role, if the US goes aggressor. Which the US is repeatedly saying they might do. That they think it might be a good idea to just take over some former ally's land. (These people are truly the most vile scum doing the worst they can to deface lady liberty, shame on this horrible era. Keep America Allied!)
  - credit_guy 2y ago
    I share some of your frustrations. I don't like what the current administration is doing. I would much rather the US gave plenty of support to Ukraine to allow them to finish the fight. But it is a core of my system of thinking to give people the benefit of the doubt. Do I think Trump might be a Russian asset? He might be, and he certainly behaves like one. But it is also possible he is not. A lot of what Trump does can also be explained without the assumption that he is a Russian asset. The only assumption is that he really believes in the slogan "Make America Great Again" (even if that means, "and the allies be damned"). In any case, it's very unlikely he's surrounded only by Russian assets. If you look at Trump this way, you see that the media has seriously exaggerated lots of his moves. The "rare earth deal", where supposedly the US is squeezing Ukraine out of 500 billion dollars, is nothing like that. Once you learn about one such exaggeration, you are on the lookout. And to me the "kill switch" thins seems like quite an exaggeration too. Your view might differ. It's ok. What is less ok is to use a tone that this forum considers to not be conducive to a healthy exchange of ideas. See for example [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ed_mercer 2y ago
If this is real, surely it cannot be that hard to find and remove this kill switch?
- benterix 2y ago
  It is not really a kill switch, just the ability to reprogram the jamming device to adapt to changing Russian radar frequencies. Not really something Ukrainians couldn't do themselves if given opportunity.

51 points by pseudolus 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

elmerfud 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

PedroBatista 2y ago

The F-35 is the biggest Trojan horse but this problem has been getting bigger and bigger over the years. Everything dependent on GPS and even cruise missiles with components from another nation requiring the other nation to agree on the targets ( in general terms ). I’m talking about hugely expensive equipment “owned” but a country, not the other country refusing a new order. Ironically this has also been a similar problem inside the branches of the US Military, aka weapon DRM where the soldiers/technicians can’t even do a basic repair, they have to call “customer support”. The more the time passes the more the old truths make more sense: Never, ever be dependent on somebody else to defend yourself. Who knew the fricking France were right.. ;)

rich_sasha 2y ago
I'm not sure I would put GPS so high on the list. For one, there are many satellite navigation systems. US has GPS, Europe has Galileo, Russia has Glonass and China something else (I can't remember the name). Second, GPS is easy to jam, so actually a lot of important military stuff doesn't depend on it. There are some lower-cost precision munitions that do, and indeed in Ukraine they are increasingly less and less effective. But everyone is aware of this, and so while incredibly useful, it's not that critical for this reason.

apercu 2y ago

Well, that's one way to kill the U.S. military industrial complex.

benoau 2y ago
Or the EU.
- benterix 2y ago
  Care to elaborate? The European military industry is getting stronger and stronger, and given the current situation basically all European countries prefer European military supplies to American ones.

ein0p 2y ago

German pensioners, get ready. The government you've just voted in is about to bleed you white to create a poor replacement. This is, after all, why we "don't have free healthcare" in the US. Or pensions, for that matter.

Sabinus 2y ago
German pensioners aren't silly enough to trust their protection to a belligerent and possibly compromised USA.
EdwardDiego 2y ago
No, your military isn't the reason you don't have free healthcare in the USA. You don't have free healthcare in the USA because of an ongoing concerted effort to prevent it happening by people and companies who make a nice profit from it not happening. This EP is from 1961, featuring the actor Ronald Reagan, and was played at coffee meetings of "concerned mothers" organised by the wives of American Medical Association members. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYrlDlrLDSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYrlDlrLDSQ As part of "Operation Coffee Cup". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Coffee_Cup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Coffee_Cup These kind of things are why you don't have free healthcare, anything that provides social good but challenges private profit is immediately labelled socialism by vested interests who have sufficient money to propagate their falsehoods. It always amazes me what a sufficient plurality of Americans label as socialism that other countries consider to be "a good investment in society".
benjymo 2y ago
The government just announced an increase in pension of 3.74%. I think they'll do ok.
- ein0p 2y ago
  Von Der Leyen: "We will turn the private savings into much needed investments." :-)

dopidopHN 2y ago

That was a talking point in French newspaper when Germany bought those. While they could have bough perfectly fine Rafales. Tss

ein0p 2y ago
Wouldn't Rafale just have its own, French kill switch? Especially given the history between the two countries?
- N19PEDL2 2y ago
  It is the US that has suddenly become unreliable.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    In 20th century France and Germany have been at each other's throats twice. That's what I'd call "unreliable". Merely telling Europe that the US can no longer fund its security, or entertain the EUs delusions of military grandeur (which is true - we're broke AF) is nothing in comparison to that. Do not think for a minute that anything is forgotten between the two countries - in Europe nothing is ever forgotten.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      What nonsense is this? The friendship between Germany and France since the end of WWII is a resounding success story. There is no fundamental distrust between the two countries. > in Europe nothing is ever forgotten. "Not forgetting" and "harbouring a grudge" are two different things. It's precisely because we remember two devastating world wars that we're trying to foster cooperation in Europe.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        Things change. And they will change. If history teaches us anything, it's that there's no such thing as permanent "trust" between countries.

credit_guy 2y ago

It was not a "kill switch". If you are able to service some military aircraft to such extent that you fly combat missions, you probably can identify any "kill switches" and work around them. Just look at Iran that is still flying the US made F-4s. What the US is doing with the F-16s in Ukraine is refusing to update the software on a jammer. The pace of technological evolution in the war is so extreme, that these jammers are in danger of becoming obsolete [1]: > But the Russian air force could sidestep the jamming by reprogramming their radars to operate at slightly different frequencies. Under Biden, the USAF team might’ve kept pace with Russian adaptation by constantly adjusting the AN/ALQ-131s own frequencies. Under Trump, Ukrainian airmen are stuck with pods whose programming may soon be out of date. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/07/france-to-the-rescue-french-made-mirage-2000-jets-could-become-ukraines-most-important-aerial-radar-jammers/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/07/france-to-t...

hypothesis 2y ago
> It was not a "kill switch". Software is famously a munition, so maybe call it lack of ammunition…
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Trying to use a >50 year old fighter jet as counter-example for "see, it's proven folks can maintain & keep their equipment running themselves" is a hilariously out-of-touch proposition to me. (65 year olds actually.) Who even cares about the jet by itself? Command and control (c2), c3, c4, up through c6isr (command, control, communications, computers, cyber-defense and combat systems and intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance) is all part of what makes these tip of the spears useful. Theres a whole battlenet that has to be totally reconstituted for these jets to serve their role, if the US goes aggressor. Which the US is repeatedly saying they might do. That they think it might be a good idea to just take over some former ally's land. (These people are truly the most vile scum doing the worst they can to deface lady liberty, shame on this horrible era. Keep America Allied!)
- credit_guy 2y ago
  I share some of your frustrations. I don't like what the current administration is doing. I would much rather the US gave plenty of support to Ukraine to allow them to finish the fight. But it is a core of my system of thinking to give people the benefit of the doubt. Do I think Trump might be a Russian asset? He might be, and he certainly behaves like one. But it is also possible he is not. A lot of what Trump does can also be explained without the assumption that he is a Russian asset. The only assumption is that he really believes in the slogan "Make America Great Again" (even if that means, "and the allies be damned"). In any case, it's very unlikely he's surrounded only by Russian assets. If you look at Trump this way, you see that the media has seriously exaggerated lots of his moves. The "rare earth deal", where supposedly the US is squeezing Ukraine out of 500 billion dollars, is nothing like that. Once you learn about one such exaggeration, you are on the lookout. And to me the "kill switch" thins seems like quite an exaggeration too. Your view might differ. It's ok. What is less ok is to use a tone that this forum considers to not be conducive to a healthy exchange of ideas. See for example [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ed_mercer 2y ago

If this is real, surely it cannot be that hard to find and remove this kill switch?

benterix 2y ago
It is not really a kill switch, just the ability to reprogram the jamming device to adapt to changing Russian radar frequencies. Not really something Ukrainians couldn't do themselves if given opportunity.