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A crazy fact is that a higher percentage of Irish died in the Great Famine (well over 10% of the population) than in the Bengal famine in India in 1943 (about 3
by rayiner 2y ago
A crazy fact is that a higher percentage of Irish died in the Great Famine (well over 10% of the population) than in the Bengal famine in India in 1943 (about 3.5%).
This is a fascinating point:
> In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”
- abeppu 2y agoMaybe a closer comparison would be famine of 1876-8, where some estimate go as high as 8.6M fatalities on a population of ~58M. > In its first full year, 1846, Robert Peel’s Conservative government imported huge quantities of corn, known in Europe as maize, from America to feed the starving. The government insisted that the corn be sold rather than given away (free food would merely reinforce Irish indolence) Compare this to the 1876 response in which "relief work" camps had workers doing strenuous labor in order to receive a meager ration of far fewer calories than would have been expended in the work. > ... this 'Temple wage' consisted of 450 grams (1 lb) of grain plus one anna for a man, and a slightly reduced amount for a woman or working child,[12] for a "long day of hard labour without shade or rest."[13] The rationale behind the reduced wage, which was in keeping with a prevailing belief of the time, was that any excessive payment might create 'dependency' ...
- Loughla 2y ago>which was in keeping with a prevailing belief of the time, was that any excessive payment might create 'dependency' ... Now where have I heard that recently
- Henchman21 2y agoFrom people who want to take us back to feudalism.
- red-iron-pine 2y agoand that keep succeeding in those attempts
- zdragnar 2y agoThe generic term is: perverse incentive.
- munificent 2y agoIndeed, and ironically, from people who have largely inherited their wealth instead of working for it.
- DrillShopper 2y ago[flagged]
- transcriptase 2y agoThat would be an odd thing for him to think, given the alleged emerald mine was claimed to be in Zambia which was never apartheid.
- heavymetalpoizn 2y ago[dead]
- blackhawkC17 2y agoIgnorant opinion. The mine was in Zambia and had incredibly low output. There was no fortune made there. They’re many legitimate things to criticize about Musk. No need to cook up BS stories.
- 2y ago
- ants_everywhere 2y agoThis reminds me of Vladimir Lenin's claim that an important socialist principle is "He who does not work shall not eat" [0]. Just let the people eat dudes. Also Russell's party during the famine was the Whigs. O'Toole gets that wrong, referring to them as "The Liberals." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_shall_he_eat#Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_...
- tux 2y agoYeah this reminds me of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lurk2 2y agoThe sentiment goes back as far as the Bible: 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. - 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15
- sapphicsnail 2y agoThat's very different from saying you shouldn't help people in a famine. Jesus also said, "blessed are the poor" full stop in Matthew. Also the KJV version is a pretty inaccurate translation and I don't know why people quote it in 2025 when there are translations that are both more accurate and more comprehensible.
- cryptonector 2y agoWas Malthusianism in vogue in the British government back then?
- donall 2y agoVery much so. Tim Pat Coogan covers this in his book "The Famine Plot" (which is one of the major proponents that the great hunger was a genocide and has received a lot of criticism, but which covers the basic facts in good detail). [edit: somebody elsewhere in this comment section has (apparently seriously) proposed Malthusianism as the root cause. In the Year of Our Lord 2025. With all of human knowledge available at their fingertips. You can't keep a bad idea down]
- scandox 2y agoDespite being a much liked figure in Ireland Tim Pat Coogan is not taken seriously as a historian by anyone here at all.
- piltdownman 2y agoExcept by your Secretary of State, who Schumer petitioned to get Coogan his visa for academic touring when it was strangely denied by the Dublin Embassy. He is also a hero solely based on the defamation case he lost raised by Ruth Dudley Edwards, where he (correctly) posited that Ruth had 'grovelled to and hypocritically ingratiated herself with the English establishment to further her writing career'.
- donall 2y agoI'm aware that he has his detractors. I'm not a Coogan apologist! I'm just saying that the book covers the Malthusian angle well enough and it cites sources. The genocide angle is controversial to some but 90% of the book is straightforward fact.
- cryptonector 2y agoI figured. Thanks.
- KingMob 2y ago> Maybe a closer comparison would be famine of 1876-8, where some estimate go as high as 8.6M fatalities on a population of ~58M. Uh, this is the Bengal famine the parent comment refers to, right? Ireland has never had 58M people in it.
- abeppu 2y agoUh, no, the parent comment explicitly said the Bengal famine of 1943, which had up to 3.8M deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943 The famine of 1876-8 in addition to being worse from the percent-causalities view, and a lifetime earlier (65 years), was also not centered in Bengal but in other regions of India generally further south and west. Different in time, place and severity, and different in the policy response in part b/c the 1943 famine was during WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876%E2%80%931878 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876%E2%80%931...
- newsclues 2y agoSounds like an attempt at genocide. Something that has led to billions in reparations for some groups but not the Irish.
- nextts 2y agoAddicted to basic survival huh. Can't have that.
- throwawaymanbot 2y agoFamine? Only one crop failed. Ireland was a net exporter of food to the UK.. There’s another word for this, not a famine…
- lovich 2y agoI see why others flagged you although I wouldn’t. For anyone else who doesn’t know, Ireland was exporting grain and meat during the famine at the orders of the British. They explicitly let the Irish die if someone else could order the food because Free Trade was perfect and if it wiped out a bunch of undesirables to boot, even better[1] As you had groups with a wildly different wealth as the Ottaman Sultan and the Choctaws on the Trail of Tears scrounging for anything to spare to feed the starving Irish, their British overlords were shipping away food to anyone who could pay them a penny more. If it wasn’t an engineered genocide then it’s close as you can get to one imo [1] https://ireland-calling.com/irish-famine-ireland-exported-food-as-thousands-starved/ https://ireland-calling.com/irish-famine-ireland-exported-fo...
- emmelaich 2y agoPrivate charity from England and others did send a lot of money to Ireland during the famine(s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Relief_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Relief_Association
- DrillShopper 2y ago[flagged]
- lovich 2y agoThere may have been individuals within the British citizenry who independently did the best moral actions they could in the circumstances, but there's documented evidence that the political body at large and their leadership at best did not care an iota for an any and all deaths in the Irish due to the consequences of their leadership, or at worst actively hoped and planned for the deaths to remove an inconvenient people.
- 486sx33 2y ago[flagged]
- rayiner 2y agoIreland produced plenty of good. The Irish could have supported themselves without the British demanding the Irish export food instead of eating it.
- nailer 2y agoIreland being left to fend for themselves, without exporting to Britain, would’ve also solved the problem.
- nine_k 2y agoBy now, Ireland has a higher GDP per capita than the UK, and has had it for last couple of decades.
- transcriptase 2y agoI’m not sure being a tax haven for multinationals by giving them sweetheart deals when the intentional loopholes don’t suffice is really indicative of a robust economy.
- nine_k 2y agoAs long as it serves the local population (and apparently it does), I don't see why it's a wrong thing to. Ireland is not just a paper-holding tax haven; it has huge factories and engineering offices of large and successful corporations, again, employing local folks. I don't see how it might make its economy frail.
- crowselect 2y ago[flagged]
- antihipocrat 2y agoThe other one being the Australian Aboriginal population?
- leosanchez 2y agoBengal famine.
- KaiserPro 2y agoJapan had nothing to do with the Bengal famine at all.
- crowselect 2y ago“Caused by the brits” Where are you getting japan from?
- KaiserPro 2y agoJapan was in the process of burning it's way through Burma, which is before that time was a massive producer of rice. (https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-26937-2_3 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-26937-2_...) South-east asia suddenly lost something like 5 million tonnes of rice production in the space of two years. Yes, the war time administration fucked up, but to say "its always the British" is reductionist and also sidelines some of the most brutal civilian subjugations of WWII.
- FromTheSteppe 2y agoOr Persian famine of 1917–1919, or Iranian famine of 1942–1943. Both of which the west downplays.
- SwtCyber 2y agoIt's wild how the same empire could produce such different outcomes
- crossroadsguy 2y agoA somewhat related side-note (might be interesting): William Dalrymple recently talked about - "How in India the Irish Transformed from Colonised to Colonisers" - https://nitter.net/DalrympleWill/status/1898036558898585768 https://nitter.net/DalrympleWill/status/1898036558898585768 - and not quite/always the benevolent/sympathetic ones. Besides we still call these events "famines"? Interesting. I thought genocide would be the word, isn't it?
- Kudos 2y ago> "How in India the Irish Transformed from Colonised to Colonisers" The Irish people mentioned appear to actually be part of the plantation class of British people who arrived into Ulster. I don't think the framing should be taken sincerely.
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoFamines, blockades & sanctions on basic goods were the WMD of the colonial age. All the latecomer nations raced to get out from under this boot and become empires - and became the same sort of monster or worser. Every meal is a gift from Harber & Bosch + the world order allowing international trade. A glimps can be had, when looking at countries going bankrupt who can not import these basics: Sri-Lanka https://www.wfp.org/news/food-crisis-sri-lanka-likely-worsen-amid-poor-agricultural-production-price-spikes-and-ongoing https://www.wfp.org/news/food-crisis-sri-lanka-likely-worsen... or Pakistan.
- sushibowl 2y ago> Every meal is a gift from Harber & Bosch + the world order allowing international trade. Let's not forget Norman Borlaug
- InDubioProRubio 2y agoGreat man, on whose shoulders many dwarfs have postured, about having brought peace by self-posturing and self-producing. We talked ourselves into having changed and being better than our predecessors, while eating their meals. We got drunk with ourselves on their grapes.
- blululu 2y agoThe Irish famine is roughly comparable to other famines of the 19th century in terms of its mortality rate (i.e. Mysore in the 1870s). A true comparison is difficult since there were not accurate census figures in most famine prone regions but the rate is comparable (Ireland is on the high side but it was still comparable within the margin of error). What is unique about the Irish famine is that modern day Ireland’s population is still about 25% lower now than it was in the eve of the famine 180 years ago. I can’t think of any other place that depopulated like that.
- ac2u 2y agoMortality rate doesn’t paint a full picture of the effect on Ireland. Emigration had a huge effect on the depopulation too. (I don’t think you deliberately left this out or anything just wanted to provide additional context). There were other crops in Ireland at the time that were exported under armed guard. A lot of the policy was driven by the fact that some British politicians saw the famine as a natural way to ‘thin the herd’ of the Irish populous. Of course, Houses of Parliament records show that there were British politicians that were morally aghast at this, but unfortunately they couldn’t have enough of an impact.
- rayiner 2y ago> The Irish famine is roughly comparable to other famines of the 19th century in terms of its mortality rate (i.e. Mysore in the 1870s) Yes, absolutely. But at least for me it was shocking to learn that Ireland, right next door to Britain, was suffering from similar famines to India.
- pavel_lishin 2y agoMy understanding is that while Britain wasn't the direct cause of the famine itself (that is, they didn't specifically introduce a pathogen that would fuck up their major crop), they were largely responsible for explicitly refusing to help and making the situation worse. I'd be more shocked to find out that Britain in the 19th century made things better in a region with famine.