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Baker and Gorbachev talked about the status NATO forces in East Germany until the Soviet withdrawal in 1994. They agreed that only the forces under direct Germa

by mopsi 2y ago

Baker and Gorbachev talked about the status NATO forces in East Germany until the Soviet withdrawal in 1994. They agreed that only the forces under direct German control would enter East Germany until the last Soviet forces had withdrawn. Their agreement was formalized in Article 5 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany. The relevant article: ARTICLE 5 Until the completion of the withdrawal of the Soviet armed forces from the territory of the present German Democratic Republic and of Berlin in accordance with Article 4 of the present Treaty, only German territorial defence units which are not integrated into the alliance structures to which German armed forces in the rest of German territory are assigned will be stationed in that territory as armed forces of the united Germany. During that period and subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of this Article, armed forces of other states will not be stationed in that territory or carry out any other military activity there. Germany upheld their part of the agreement, the withdrawal went uneventfully, and the agreement was concluded by the end of August 1994. As you can see, it has nothing to do with whether NATO would accept new members or not. Gorbachev and many other top Soviet/Russian officials have directly refuted this myth, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963

genewitch 2y ago
the link i gave, under _Document 5_, is the transcripts from their conversations. Where baker said "not one inch east of the Elbe." I am not sure how much clearer it can be than declassified documents. "That is a lie putin told, it's propaganda!" no, it's right there. has been available to look at for 9 years. I really do not give one WHIT what happened afterward, all i care about is refuting falsehoods. to wit: A United States Secretary of State named Baker, gave a "cascade of assurances" that NATO would not expand EAST of the Elbe. Repeatedly, the same message was given to the russians. That is literally all i said. You're arguing something completely different now and like i said, good for you, i don't care. it wasn't what i was talking about or responding to.
- mopsi 2y ago
  There is not a single mention of Elbe in the linked document. However, there are numerous references to the 2+4 agreement, which is the informal name for the treaty I previously cited. That's what they were discussing and that's what they agreed upon. Soviet representatives have confirmed that the discussions were limited solely to the placement of foreign forces in East Germany until the Soviet withdrawal was complete. As the Soviet foreign minister stated in a 2014 interview, there was simply no reason to discuss NATO beyond that. They did not expect the Warsaw Pact to dissolve. The idea that the world would change so drastically that the Warsaw Pact would dissolve and its members would seek to join NATO was unimaginable at the time. You are clinging to an erroneous understanding of a few transcript snippets against the words of the direct participants and their actual written agreements.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    So you're saying that Baker never gave a "Cascade of Assurances" (not my fucking words) to Gorbachev? Even though there's dozens of documents there, i'm sure you scoured them all to make sure "Elbe" wasn't referenced. You think i pulled that out of my ass? I want you to answer the simple question, because you have refused. Is the statement: Baker verbally assured gorbachev that there would be no eastward expansion True or false? That is literally, and when i say literally i mean literally the only thing i was talking to, above.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      Baker verbally assured gorbachev that there would be no eastward expansion True or false? Gorbachev called it a myth: https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 And it's obvious if you follow the historical context. In 1990, Germany was still formally under Allied military occupation (since 1945). In the final 2+4 treaty, East Germany and West Germany - the "two" - negotiated with the four Allied powers (UK, France, USA, and USSR) to determine the terms of reunification. Their discussions centered on whether a unified Germany would be fully neutral, partially neutral, or entirely integrated into NATO. In the end, they agreed that reunified Germany could remain in NATO, provided that no foreign troops were stationed in East Germany until Soviet forces had fully withdrawn by the end of 1994. That's it. There was never any discussion about the broader future of NATO because there was no reason to have one. Germany bordered the Warsaw Pact, and no-one on the Soviet side expected it to dissolve.

by mopsi 2y ago

genewitch 2y ago

the link i gave, under _Document 5_, is the transcripts from their conversations. Where baker said "not one inch east of the Elbe." I am not sure how much clearer it can be than declassified documents. "That is a lie putin told, it's propaganda!" no, it's right there. has been available to look at for 9 years. I really do not give one WHIT what happened afterward, all i care about is refuting falsehoods. to wit: A United States Secretary of State named Baker, gave a "cascade of assurances" that NATO would not expand EAST of the Elbe. Repeatedly, the same message was given to the russians. That is literally all i said. You're arguing something completely different now and like i said, good for you, i don't care. it wasn't what i was talking about or responding to.

mopsi 2y ago
There is not a single mention of Elbe in the linked document. However, there are numerous references to the 2+4 agreement, which is the informal name for the treaty I previously cited. That's what they were discussing and that's what they agreed upon. Soviet representatives have confirmed that the discussions were limited solely to the placement of foreign forces in East Germany until the Soviet withdrawal was complete. As the Soviet foreign minister stated in a 2014 interview, there was simply no reason to discuss NATO beyond that. They did not expect the Warsaw Pact to dissolve. The idea that the world would change so drastically that the Warsaw Pact would dissolve and its members would seek to join NATO was unimaginable at the time. You are clinging to an erroneous understanding of a few transcript snippets against the words of the direct participants and their actual written agreements.
- genewitch 2y ago
  So you're saying that Baker never gave a "Cascade of Assurances" (not my fucking words) to Gorbachev? Even though there's dozens of documents there, i'm sure you scoured them all to make sure "Elbe" wasn't referenced. You think i pulled that out of my ass? I want you to answer the simple question, because you have refused. Is the statement: Baker verbally assured gorbachev that there would be no eastward expansion True or false? That is literally, and when i say literally i mean literally the only thing i was talking to, above.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    Baker verbally assured gorbachev that there would be no eastward expansion True or false? Gorbachev called it a myth: https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 https://x.com/splendid_pete/status/1650735533826375680 And it's obvious if you follow the historical context. In 1990, Germany was still formally under Allied military occupation (since 1945). In the final 2+4 treaty, East Germany and West Germany - the "two" - negotiated with the four Allied powers (UK, France, USA, and USSR) to determine the terms of reunification. Their discussions centered on whether a unified Germany would be fully neutral, partially neutral, or entirely integrated into NATO. In the end, they agreed that reunified Germany could remain in NATO, provided that no foreign troops were stationed in East Germany until Soviet forces had fully withdrawn by the end of 1994. That's it. There was never any discussion about the broader future of NATO because there was no reason to have one. Germany bordered the Warsaw Pact, and no-one on the Soviet side expected it to dissolve.