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What exactly is fertility here? I don’t think all the non-bullies are shooting blanks. What if the bullies are just worse on average at family planning? How are

What exactly is fertility here? I don’t think all the non-bullies are shooting blanks. What if the bullies are just worse on average at family planning? How are you differentiating civilizations, especially in the modern age when national borders don’t constrain enormous trade of goods and culture?

decimalenough 2y ago
It's not about shooting blanks, but getting the chance to reproduce in the first place. There's a lot of research showing that women are attracted to confidence and dominant traits (read: "bad guys"), and that this preference is basically universal.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Could you share some of this research. I haven’t seen it, but I’d be happy to learn.
  - hwbehrens 2y ago
    As one example, here is a relatively well-cited study from 1994: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167294202008 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014616729420200... Note that interpretations of "dominance" tend to vary, it seems, between papers and over time.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  Women can be and are bullies too. The article took into account both sexes: >>The research shows that higher levels of bullying in both men and women were associated with having children in young adulthood (by ages 23 or 24) in addition to having more children overall. Their reason appears to be that they are able to date more and engage in more sexual activity as they assert their (I assume, higher) social position: >> The recent findings build on previous BRAVE research that has indicated adolescent bullies date more and engage in more sexual activity than their peers—attracting potential mates by publicly asserting their dominance and establishing their position socially. My guess is that more aggression leads to less foresight about consequences of action, or as OP mentioned, are just worse on average at family planning
  - bloomingkales 2y ago
    Women can be and are bullies too. Didn't even consider that. How many women bully men into getting married or having kids? How many cultures bully women to get married young? What societies bully you about not getting laid or being single? The bullying is all over the institution.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
icantjuggle 2y ago
It's a small but confusing point that in academic demography, "low/high fertility" just means something like "how many children does a typical woman have" rather than how easy/hard it is to conceive them (which is what it means in everyday language). See the definitions of these rates for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography#Common_rates_and_ratios https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography#Common_rates_and_...
reverendsteveii 2y ago
strictly speaking, fecundity is the number of offspring you could make (and thus low fecundity would imply shooting blanks) whereas fertility is the number you actually make.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  Ah I see, that’s my bad.
wakawaka28 2y ago
I'm gonna guess a bit: Non-bullies are less attractive on average than bullies. It's not about their preference or aversion to other behavior. "Confidence" is a proxy for physical attractiveness. A confident unattractive person comes off as creepy.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  You’re assuming it’s an issue of attraction, and not what happens after you get the partner (maybe bullies keep their partners more often, or are more prone to having kids). I’ve got an alternative theory that somewhat agrees and somewhat disagrees. Bullies are, if anything, people who conform to the unspoken desires of the group over the spoken ones. Groups have things that they say that they want, and a normal person conforms to those vocalized things. The bully, in an attempt to get the group’s approval, detects a deeper, unspoken set of wants and conforms to those instead. I think that someone naturally talented at that is more likely to be rewarded in our economic system. Isn’t the most successful businessman the guy who can detect those things people don’t know that they want and meet that demand? So maybe bullies end up richer, so more able to support kids and attract partners as a consequence.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    You might be on to something in that bully-like "aggressive" qualities help people get ahead in certain endeavors (not least of which is dating). But if you're not an attractive person, I think most people will not tolerate you being a bully (you will be bullied back or otherwise dealt with, unless you're a formidible-looking individual or something). People who are bullied are usually attacked for their looks or unappealing personality features. If nothing else, bullies usually need to be more physically capable than their victims. That is a generally attractive characteristic. It might not apply to girls as much, but I think we can at least say that ugly girls are usually turn shy rather than turning bully.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      I think it’s something a lot more interesting than aggression. Aggression happens to be one trait that runs counter to surface level social norms while simultaneously enabling conformity with the deeper ones. Consider a popular bully that picks on a racial minority. On the surface, many kids may have been told to be nice to those of other races, to never exercise violence, etc. At a deeper level, though, they may have internalized their culture’s disdain for that minority. The bully comes along to benefit from the group’s deeper desire to hurt and exclude the minority because he/she, for whatever reason, possesses characteristics that allow him/her to violate the surface level norms with less concern. Aggression is just the trait that allows one to violate the norm against violence.

decimalenough 2y ago

It's not about shooting blanks, but getting the chance to reproduce in the first place. There's a lot of research showing that women are attracted to confidence and dominant traits (read: "bad guys"), and that this preference is basically universal.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Could you share some of this research. I haven’t seen it, but I’d be happy to learn.
- hwbehrens 2y ago
  As one example, here is a relatively well-cited study from 1994: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167294202008 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/014616729420200... Note that interpretations of "dominance" tend to vary, it seems, between papers and over time.
1659447091 2y ago
Women can be and are bullies too. The article took into account both sexes: >>The research shows that higher levels of bullying in both men and women were associated with having children in young adulthood (by ages 23 or 24) in addition to having more children overall. Their reason appears to be that they are able to date more and engage in more sexual activity as they assert their (I assume, higher) social position: >> The recent findings build on previous BRAVE research that has indicated adolescent bullies date more and engage in more sexual activity than their peers—attracting potential mates by publicly asserting their dominance and establishing their position socially. My guess is that more aggression leads to less foresight about consequences of action, or as OP mentioned, are just worse on average at family planning
- bloomingkales 2y ago
  Women can be and are bullies too. Didn't even consider that. How many women bully men into getting married or having kids? How many cultures bully women to get married young? What societies bully you about not getting laid or being single? The bullying is all over the institution.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

icantjuggle 2y ago

It's a small but confusing point that in academic demography, "low/high fertility" just means something like "how many children does a typical woman have" rather than how easy/hard it is to conceive them (which is what it means in everyday language). See the definitions of these rates for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography#Common_rates_and_ratios https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography#Common_rates_and_...

reverendsteveii 2y ago

strictly speaking, fecundity is the number of offspring you could make (and thus low fecundity would imply shooting blanks) whereas fertility is the number you actually make.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
Ah I see, that’s my bad.

wakawaka28 2y ago

I'm gonna guess a bit: Non-bullies are less attractive on average than bullies. It's not about their preference or aversion to other behavior. "Confidence" is a proxy for physical attractiveness. A confident unattractive person comes off as creepy.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
You’re assuming it’s an issue of attraction, and not what happens after you get the partner (maybe bullies keep their partners more often, or are more prone to having kids). I’ve got an alternative theory that somewhat agrees and somewhat disagrees. Bullies are, if anything, people who conform to the unspoken desires of the group over the spoken ones. Groups have things that they say that they want, and a normal person conforms to those vocalized things. The bully, in an attempt to get the group’s approval, detects a deeper, unspoken set of wants and conforms to those instead. I think that someone naturally talented at that is more likely to be rewarded in our economic system. Isn’t the most successful businessman the guy who can detect those things people don’t know that they want and meet that demand? So maybe bullies end up richer, so more able to support kids and attract partners as a consequence.
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  You might be on to something in that bully-like "aggressive" qualities help people get ahead in certain endeavors (not least of which is dating). But if you're not an attractive person, I think most people will not tolerate you being a bully (you will be bullied back or otherwise dealt with, unless you're a formidible-looking individual or something). People who are bullied are usually attacked for their looks or unappealing personality features. If nothing else, bullies usually need to be more physically capable than their victims. That is a generally attractive characteristic. It might not apply to girls as much, but I think we can at least say that ugly girls are usually turn shy rather than turning bully.
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    I think it’s something a lot more interesting than aggression. Aggression happens to be one trait that runs counter to surface level social norms while simultaneously enabling conformity with the deeper ones. Consider a popular bully that picks on a racial minority. On the surface, many kids may have been told to be nice to those of other races, to never exercise violence, etc. At a deeper level, though, they may have internalized their culture’s disdain for that minority. The bully comes along to benefit from the group’s deeper desire to hurt and exclude the minority because he/she, for whatever reason, possesses characteristics that allow him/her to violate the surface level norms with less concern. Aggression is just the trait that allows one to violate the norm against violence.