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What do you mean "if" of course we do? Relying on older methods means narrowing the acceptable conditions for landing. It means reduced economic activity, reduc

What do you mean "if" of course we do? Relying on older methods means narrowing the acceptable conditions for landing. It means reduced economic activity, reduced opportunities. How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? In comparison to the US's power, Russia is an annoying pipsqueak, but instead we are letting Russia boss around on everything. It's shameful and embarrassing. Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods?

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? Treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you. > Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods? Well... treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you.
- epistasis 2y ago
  And they are going to also experience "inconveniences" for random bullying. Ignoring what a bully does has predictable consequences.
  - wholinator2 2y ago
    Yes, I'm reminded of how woefully the teachers at my grade school tried to stop bullying by... making them sit together and talk through a script. Usually finalized by a knock on the head as they were walking out, having perfectly finished their "remediation". I'm also reminded of how quickly problems were solved when you simply disobeyed the adults and hit them back. It got results. You might say that a grade school is very different than the world state. You might
    - epistasis 2y ago
      Yes, some might. And other, far more wise people, might realize that appeasement of bullies throughout history has resulted in some of our very worst wars and the most horrific atrocities that humanity has ever committed. Weakness invites conflict and destruction from the bullies of the world, and when it comes to war, the bullies gain materials and conscripts when they are allowed to conquer. (I think we are very much on the same page, thank you for the comment.)
dani__german 2y ago
Europe has about 5 functioning fighter aircraft and ~~20 operating tanks at any given moment. It is also completely controlled by a political system that considers conflict the same way it sees domestic abuse in a relationship. It's entire current zeitgeist is formed and controlled by the half of humanity that cant fight and will spend as much time as possible trying to talk their way out of it.
- epistasis 2y ago
  Your narrative on Europe is wrong. Poland has 1000 tanks and would completely wipe out Russia in a war. United, Europe could eliminate Russia's military with a few percent of GDP, full war footing is in no way essential. They are nobles arguing about who has to take time away from the dinner party to shoo away a miscreant throwing tomatoes. Except for the Baltic States, who take it more seriously at the moment, but that will change as soon as the Vatniks on the political extremes are finally removed.
  - dani__german 2y ago
    even assuming Poland could do this, what do you think Russia would do nuclear wise if they were faced with imminent destruction? Did you forget that we live under the sword of Damocles? Additionally, good luck finding young men who want to fight for their country in the west of Europe. New arrivals will not lay down their lives as they often hate their host countries and people. Heritage Europeans are massively discriminated against by their own governments for speech crimes, on top of race and sex-based discrimination. A very small amount of men will fight to continue that state of affairs.
    - epistasis 2y ago
      First, Poland is a NATO member. Second, Ukraine is invading Russian territory, occupies it, and no nukes yet! The supposed nuclear threat is empty and stupid. Third, if you think for a fucking microsecond that 90% of Polish men are not ready to go to war and kill Russians you have never talked to a Polish person. They know what is at stake. Fourth, even the UK is talking about boots on the ground and planes in the air over Ukraine, https://breakingdefense.com/2025/03/amid-us-rift-with-ukraine-uk-proposes-peace-plan-with-coalition-of-the-willing-boots-on-the-ground/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/03/amid-us-rift-with-ukrain... Fifth, fighting these completely made up narratives that have no basis in reality is exhausting. It's almost as if an entire population has decided that they misread the commandment to be "Though SHALL bear false witness."
ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
You're suggesting open war with Russia over GPS jamming? You do understand that the west also engages in sub-war, antagonistic activities with Russia, right? These aren't "inferior methods", they're part of spectrum of activities which have associated costs and risks.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? Treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you. > Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods? Well... treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you.

epistasis 2y ago
And they are going to also experience "inconveniences" for random bullying. Ignoring what a bully does has predictable consequences.
- wholinator2 2y ago
  Yes, I'm reminded of how woefully the teachers at my grade school tried to stop bullying by... making them sit together and talk through a script. Usually finalized by a knock on the head as they were walking out, having perfectly finished their "remediation". I'm also reminded of how quickly problems were solved when you simply disobeyed the adults and hit them back. It got results. You might say that a grade school is very different than the world state. You might
  - epistasis 2y ago
    Yes, some might. And other, far more wise people, might realize that appeasement of bullies throughout history has resulted in some of our very worst wars and the most horrific atrocities that humanity has ever committed. Weakness invites conflict and destruction from the bullies of the world, and when it comes to war, the bullies gain materials and conscripts when they are allowed to conquer. (I think we are very much on the same page, thank you for the comment.)

dani__german 2y ago

Europe has about 5 functioning fighter aircraft and ~~20 operating tanks at any given moment. It is also completely controlled by a political system that considers conflict the same way it sees domestic abuse in a relationship. It's entire current zeitgeist is formed and controlled by the half of humanity that cant fight and will spend as much time as possible trying to talk their way out of it.

epistasis 2y ago
Your narrative on Europe is wrong. Poland has 1000 tanks and would completely wipe out Russia in a war. United, Europe could eliminate Russia's military with a few percent of GDP, full war footing is in no way essential. They are nobles arguing about who has to take time away from the dinner party to shoo away a miscreant throwing tomatoes. Except for the Baltic States, who take it more seriously at the moment, but that will change as soon as the Vatniks on the political extremes are finally removed.
- dani__german 2y ago
  even assuming Poland could do this, what do you think Russia would do nuclear wise if they were faced with imminent destruction? Did you forget that we live under the sword of Damocles? Additionally, good luck finding young men who want to fight for their country in the west of Europe. New arrivals will not lay down their lives as they often hate their host countries and people. Heritage Europeans are massively discriminated against by their own governments for speech crimes, on top of race and sex-based discrimination. A very small amount of men will fight to continue that state of affairs.
  - epistasis 2y ago
    First, Poland is a NATO member. Second, Ukraine is invading Russian territory, occupies it, and no nukes yet! The supposed nuclear threat is empty and stupid. Third, if you think for a fucking microsecond that 90% of Polish men are not ready to go to war and kill Russians you have never talked to a Polish person. They know what is at stake. Fourth, even the UK is talking about boots on the ground and planes in the air over Ukraine, https://breakingdefense.com/2025/03/amid-us-rift-with-ukraine-uk-proposes-peace-plan-with-coalition-of-the-willing-boots-on-the-ground/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/03/amid-us-rift-with-ukrain... Fifth, fighting these completely made up narratives that have no basis in reality is exhausting. It's almost as if an entire population has decided that they misread the commandment to be "Though SHALL bear false witness."

ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago

You're suggesting open war with Russia over GPS jamming? You do understand that the west also engages in sub-war, antagonistic activities with Russia, right? These aren't "inferior methods", they're part of spectrum of activities which have associated costs and risks.