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> That doesn’t help American workers Depends on your definition of 'help,' no kid in school thinks "Gosh I hope I can become a factory laborer when I grow up.

> That doesn’t help American workers Depends on your definition of 'help,' no kid in school thinks "Gosh I hope I can become a factory laborer when I grow up." Let's be realistic, it doesn't help US geopolitical strategy and doesn't maintain US hegemony. The US doesn't need or want factory workers, it wants citizens who are self-actualized. It might need some factory workers to realize that aim, but human drudgery powering factory production isn't an end in itself. Ideally the US leapfrogs all this and gets to fully automated production before anyone else. People want purpose in life, and being a factory drone is a pretty lousy purpose.

rayiner 2y ago
> Depends on your definition of 'help,' no kid in school thinks "Gosh I hope I can become a factory laborer when I grow up." The revealed preference suggests you're wrong. That's why the messaging of every politician that has resonated with the working class, from Bernie to Obama to Trump, it's focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs. > The US doesn't need or want factory workers, it wants citizens who are self-actualized. You can't be a citizen in a participatory democracy if you're not needed. The cognitive elites that call half the country "deplorables" might choose to give you a dole, but they'll hold it over your head and it'll come with strings attached.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs Everyone focuses on bringing them back, because you're correct that it resonates. However, what goes unsaid is that everyone hopes it'll be someone else going to work in those factories. > You can't be a citizen in a participatory democracy if you're not needed. The cognitive elites that call half the country "deplorables" might choose to give you a dole, but they'll hold it over your head and it'll come with strings attached. The 'cognitive elites' never called half the country deplorables. One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. The (Number of Trump Voters) * 0.5 is nowhere near half the country. This is of course a derail from the derail, which is the claim that you can't be a citizen if you're not 'needed.' You can be and are, and 'needed' is a value judgement by the ruling class who can divide and conquer the citizenry by manufacturing mass media telling citizens who is 'needed' and who is not.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. According to whose value system? By the standards of your typical knowledge worker, almost everyone in my home country of Bangladesh is “racist/homophobic/sexist.” But why do they get to decide? You can bet that in your hypothetical, the cognitive elite will use their leverage over the government dole to impose their value system on everyone else. Who is “needed” is not a “value judgment” it’s a structural fact about the economy. In a future where the machines make all the goods, you’ll need cognitive elites to operate and maintain them. But most people won’t be needed. And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy—which necessarily includes development of social and moral norms.
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      > And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy This is what the elites often assert before the mobs with guillotines, torches, pitchforks, etc come for them. Who gets to decide who is a participant? Ultimately it's the group that seizes power. You might think that a tiny group of despotic people can hold out against the overwhelming majority (South Africans sure tried, and some are still bitter that they failed at it) forever, but this type of thing never lasts, fortunately.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite, because they would control the machines that automated the production. South Africa actually illustrates the problem. Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country: a largely white, industrialized country participating in the globalized and financialized economy, and a largely black developing-nation economy. The black south africans cannot expel the whites, because the latter would take with them almost all industrial and agricultural technology.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

rayiner 2y ago

> Depends on your definition of 'help,' no kid in school thinks "Gosh I hope I can become a factory laborer when I grow up." The revealed preference suggests you're wrong. That's why the messaging of every politician that has resonated with the working class, from Bernie to Obama to Trump, it's focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs. > The US doesn't need or want factory workers, it wants citizens who are self-actualized. You can't be a citizen in a participatory democracy if you're not needed. The cognitive elites that call half the country "deplorables" might choose to give you a dole, but they'll hold it over your head and it'll come with strings attached.

mullingitover 2y ago
> focused on bringing back manufacturing jobs Everyone focuses on bringing them back, because you're correct that it resonates. However, what goes unsaid is that everyone hopes it'll be someone else going to work in those factories. > You can't be a citizen in a participatory democracy if you're not needed. The cognitive elites that call half the country "deplorables" might choose to give you a dole, but they'll hold it over your head and it'll come with strings attached. The 'cognitive elites' never called half the country deplorables. One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. The (Number of Trump Voters) * 0.5 is nowhere near half the country. This is of course a derail from the derail, which is the claim that you can't be a citizen if you're not 'needed.' You can be and are, and 'needed' is a value judgement by the ruling class who can divide and conquer the citizenry by manufacturing mass media telling citizens who is 'needed' and who is not.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > One person called half of Trump supporters that, referring to an undeniably real subset of that voting block that is racist/homophopic/xenophobic. According to whose value system? By the standards of your typical knowledge worker, almost everyone in my home country of Bangladesh is “racist/homophobic/sexist.” But why do they get to decide? You can bet that in your hypothetical, the cognitive elite will use their leverage over the government dole to impose their value system on everyone else. Who is “needed” is not a “value judgment” it’s a structural fact about the economy. In a future where the machines make all the goods, you’ll need cognitive elites to operate and maintain them. But most people won’t be needed. And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy—which necessarily includes development of social and moral norms.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    > And they’ll never be allowed to be full participants in a democracy This is what the elites often assert before the mobs with guillotines, torches, pitchforks, etc come for them. Who gets to decide who is a participant? Ultimately it's the group that seizes power. You might think that a tiny group of despotic people can hold out against the overwhelming majority (South Africans sure tried, and some are still bitter that they failed at it) forever, but this type of thing never lasts, fortunately.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      You couldn't feasibly overthrow the elite, because they would control the machines that automated the production. South Africa actually illustrates the problem. Post-Apartheid, South Africa is basically two countries in one country: a largely white, industrialized country participating in the globalized and financialized economy, and a largely black developing-nation economy. The black south africans cannot expel the whites, because the latter would take with them almost all industrial and agricultural technology.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]