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Russia has been jamming GPS over Finland, Estonia, and Poland on and off for a couple years, and it's been at its peak now for several months. Sometimes flights

Russia has been jamming GPS over Finland, Estonia, and Poland on and off for a couple years, and it's been at its peak now for several months. Sometimes flights have to be canceled. Tartu airport in Estonia was closed for a while[1] because the only instrument approaches it has were GPS-based. Even worse than jamming is spoofing, which Russia also does. With jamming, you and the aircraft's systems both know what's happening. Spoofing isn't as easy to detect, as the GPS system can report the wrong location but think it's highly accurate. Spoofing (and to some extent jamming) can have a persistent effect on aircraft systems even after they move out of range of the jammer/spoofer, which can lead to degraded navigation accuracy for the rest of the flight. It's a whole deal. Russia is messing with strategically important systems of many European countries, and decreasing civilian aviation safety, and they rarely get called on it. For a long time there was reluctance to even name Russia as the culprit. 1. https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-the-airport-in-Estonia-for-the-time-being-9703197.html https://www.heise.de/en/news/GPS-jamming-no-more-flights-to-...

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Russia has been jamming GPS over Finland, Estonia, and Poland on and off for a couple years, and it's been at its peak now for several months. Sometimes flights have to be canceled. I feel like we had airports before we had GPS. If this is a regular thing, shouldn't we have ways of using the airport without hoping that the jamming is having an off day?
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_octant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_octant
- jjwiseman 2y ago
  There usually are other systems (e.g. ILS), but not always. This post has several comments along the lines of "We used to fly without GPS and it was fine!" The fact is that aviation is so much safer than it used to be, and GPS is part of that. GPS helps aircraft navigate accurately even when they're not near an airport. It helps give situational awareness and avoid mid-air collisions (almost every aircraft these days has a traffic display that shows ADS-B positions of other nearby aircraft, and those positions come from accurate GPS). Loss or spoofing of GPS isn't usually a critical safety issue on an aircraft, but it definitely removes layers of safety and adds additional risk. Pilots can lose that situational awareness of nearby traffic. They may have increased workload and distraction due to having to use a less familiar & less accurate means of navigation, trying to figure out why their systems aren't working correctly, and even getting bogus ground proximity warning system alerts. ATC may now have increased workload and distraction because some approaches or even runways are no longer usable. We drove cars for a long time without seat belts and air bags, too.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > We drove cars for a long time without seat belts and air bags, too. And if we were having problems with seatbelt jammers, everyone would instantly respond by just not using seatbelts in those areas. There would be no road closures and no trip cancellations. What are we supposed to learn from this analogy?
    - jjwiseman 2y ago
      That aviation without GPS isn’t as safe as aviation with it.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        I don't even think that's true. Seatbelts are an improvement in safety regardless of context. But what you're arguing here is that a system that's designed to rely on GPS availability, and gets it, is safer than the same system during a GPS outage, not that GPS availability will make any airport management system safer.
        bobthepanda 2y ago
        It makes it safer to run aircraft closer together. Most airport capacity increases these days come from optimizing airspace, not from new runways or airports, which are time consuming, expensive, and controversial. We used to operate without them but we were also generally operating a lot fewer flights back then. The more apt analogy is what would our roads look like if all traffic signals stopped working? People would still drive, but it would have to be at lower speeds, with more congestion, etc.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > The more apt analogy is what would our roads look like if all traffic signals stopped working? People would still drive, but it would have to be at lower speeds, with more congestion, etc. This happens pretty frequently with single signals, so we know what that looks like. An unattended broken signal gets treated like a stop sign (by law), and this immediately blocks traffic. It's a total disaster. If it happens anywhere near a population center, a human will be dispatched to cover for the broken signal and dysfunctional law by manually directing traffic, and this gets you almost all the way back to normal. If every signal failed at once, that would cause much bigger problems, but in the event that we know we're unable to repair the signals, which is the case here, we wouldn't just try to muddle through using the existing roads and systems. We'd define new systems that worked better in the absence of traffic lights.
- epistasis 2y ago
  What do you mean "if" of course we do? Relying on older methods means narrowing the acceptable conditions for landing. It means reduced economic activity, reduced opportunities. How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? In comparison to the US's power, Russia is an annoying pipsqueak, but instead we are letting Russia boss around on everything. It's shameful and embarrassing. Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods?
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? Treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you. > Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods? Well... treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you.
    - epistasis 2y ago
      And they are going to also experience "inconveniences" for random bullying. Ignoring what a bully does has predictable consequences.
      - wholinator2 2y ago
        Yes, I'm reminded of how woefully the teachers at my grade school tried to stop bullying by... making them sit together and talk through a script. Usually finalized by a knock on the head as they were walking out, having perfectly finished their "remediation". I'm also reminded of how quickly problems were solved when you simply disobeyed the adults and hit them back. It got results. You might say that a grade school is very different than the world state. You might
        epistasis 2y ago
        Yes, some might. And other, far more wise people, might realize that appeasement of bullies throughout history has resulted in some of our very worst wars and the most horrific atrocities that humanity has ever committed. Weakness invites conflict and destruction from the bullies of the world, and when it comes to war, the bullies gain materials and conscripts when they are allowed to conquer. (I think we are very much on the same page, thank you for the comment.)
- miyuru 2y ago
  > I feel like we had airports before we had GPS. one of the things that made GPS available for civilian use was the Korean Air Lines Flight 007 incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
- exDM69 2y ago
  Yes, airports in eastern Europe are now using the old ground based VHF radio beacons (VOR, DME and ILS). However, they were not in use a few years ago. Some airports never had the ground based equipment installed, others still had the beacons functional but the procedures (STAR, SID) had been phased out in favor of the easier and cheaper satellite based GNSS RNAV procedures. Some airports had brand new VHF equipment installed, others had the old procedures reinstated. But aviation is a slow moving, risk averse, cost sensitive business so several airports were inaccessible (apart from visual approach) for a few months.
- cromulent 2y ago
  We become reliant on technology so quickly. Alternatives may not be safe in extreme weather. We have also torn down previous systems like Omega. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system)
ithkuil 2y ago
They are surely doing that because they want to divert NATO expansion westward /s

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> Russia has been jamming GPS over Finland, Estonia, and Poland on and off for a couple years, and it's been at its peak now for several months. Sometimes flights have to be canceled. I feel like we had airports before we had GPS. If this is a regular thing, shouldn't we have ways of using the airport without hoping that the jamming is having an off day?

WorkerBee28474 2y ago
Here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_octant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_octant
jjwiseman 2y ago
There usually are other systems (e.g. ILS), but not always. This post has several comments along the lines of "We used to fly without GPS and it was fine!" The fact is that aviation is so much safer than it used to be, and GPS is part of that. GPS helps aircraft navigate accurately even when they're not near an airport. It helps give situational awareness and avoid mid-air collisions (almost every aircraft these days has a traffic display that shows ADS-B positions of other nearby aircraft, and those positions come from accurate GPS). Loss or spoofing of GPS isn't usually a critical safety issue on an aircraft, but it definitely removes layers of safety and adds additional risk. Pilots can lose that situational awareness of nearby traffic. They may have increased workload and distraction due to having to use a less familiar & less accurate means of navigation, trying to figure out why their systems aren't working correctly, and even getting bogus ground proximity warning system alerts. ATC may now have increased workload and distraction because some approaches or even runways are no longer usable. We drove cars for a long time without seat belts and air bags, too.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > We drove cars for a long time without seat belts and air bags, too. And if we were having problems with seatbelt jammers, everyone would instantly respond by just not using seatbelts in those areas. There would be no road closures and no trip cancellations. What are we supposed to learn from this analogy?
  - jjwiseman 2y ago
    That aviation without GPS isn’t as safe as aviation with it.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      I don't even think that's true. Seatbelts are an improvement in safety regardless of context. But what you're arguing here is that a system that's designed to rely on GPS availability, and gets it, is safer than the same system during a GPS outage, not that GPS availability will make any airport management system safer.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        It makes it safer to run aircraft closer together. Most airport capacity increases these days come from optimizing airspace, not from new runways or airports, which are time consuming, expensive, and controversial. We used to operate without them but we were also generally operating a lot fewer flights back then. The more apt analogy is what would our roads look like if all traffic signals stopped working? People would still drive, but it would have to be at lower speeds, with more congestion, etc.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > The more apt analogy is what would our roads look like if all traffic signals stopped working? People would still drive, but it would have to be at lower speeds, with more congestion, etc. This happens pretty frequently with single signals, so we know what that looks like. An unattended broken signal gets treated like a stop sign (by law), and this immediately blocks traffic. It's a total disaster. If it happens anywhere near a population center, a human will be dispatched to cover for the broken signal and dysfunctional law by manually directing traffic, and this gets you almost all the way back to normal. If every signal failed at once, that would cause much bigger problems, but in the event that we know we're unable to repair the signals, which is the case here, we wouldn't just try to muddle through using the existing roads and systems. We'd define new systems that worked better in the absence of traffic lights.
epistasis 2y ago
What do you mean "if" of course we do? Relying on older methods means narrowing the acceptable conditions for landing. It means reduced economic activity, reduced opportunities. How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? In comparison to the US's power, Russia is an annoying pipsqueak, but instead we are letting Russia boss around on everything. It's shameful and embarrassing. Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods?
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > How about we treat enemies as actual enemies, rather than rolling over and letting them make our lives more difficult? Treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you. > Why in the world should we have to rely on inferior methods? Well... treating someone as an actual enemy means accepting that sometimes they're going to do things that are inconvenient for you.
  - epistasis 2y ago
    And they are going to also experience "inconveniences" for random bullying. Ignoring what a bully does has predictable consequences.
    - wholinator2 2y ago
      Yes, I'm reminded of how woefully the teachers at my grade school tried to stop bullying by... making them sit together and talk through a script. Usually finalized by a knock on the head as they were walking out, having perfectly finished their "remediation". I'm also reminded of how quickly problems were solved when you simply disobeyed the adults and hit them back. It got results. You might say that a grade school is very different than the world state. You might
      - epistasis 2y ago
        Yes, some might. And other, far more wise people, might realize that appeasement of bullies throughout history has resulted in some of our very worst wars and the most horrific atrocities that humanity has ever committed. Weakness invites conflict and destruction from the bullies of the world, and when it comes to war, the bullies gain materials and conscripts when they are allowed to conquer. (I think we are very much on the same page, thank you for the comment.)
miyuru 2y ago
> I feel like we had airports before we had GPS. one of the things that made GPS available for civilian use was the Korean Air Lines Flight 007 incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
exDM69 2y ago
Yes, airports in eastern Europe are now using the old ground based VHF radio beacons (VOR, DME and ILS). However, they were not in use a few years ago. Some airports never had the ground based equipment installed, others still had the beacons functional but the procedures (STAR, SID) had been phased out in favor of the easier and cheaper satellite based GNSS RNAV procedures. Some airports had brand new VHF equipment installed, others had the old procedures reinstated. But aviation is a slow moving, risk averse, cost sensitive business so several airports were inaccessible (apart from visual approach) for a few months.
cromulent 2y ago
We become reliant on technology so quickly. Alternatives may not be safe in extreme weather. We have also torn down previous systems like Omega. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system)

ithkuil 2y ago

They are surely doing that because they want to divert NATO expansion westward /s