5 ms·

> Civicus, an international non-profit, puts country alongside Democratic Republic of Congo, Italy, Pakistan and Serbia I doubt it. But not for the reasons yo

> Civicus, an international non-profit, puts country alongside Democratic Republic of Congo, Italy, Pakistan and Serbia I doubt it. But not for the reasons you're probably thinking. I spend most of my time in Slovenia and Croatia, but I travel to Serbia frequently as it's "in the neighborhood" and medical/dental treatment there is top-notch and much cheaper than anywhere else. I can state with absolute confidence that Serbia is one of the most freedom-loving countries in the world, and Serbs are ultra-zealous guardians of their personal freedoms. In Serbia, there are very few restrictions that impinge on one's day-to-day life, and even the laws are along the lines of recommendations. You can buy any prescription drug OTC; you can smoke in just about any restaurant; you can send your 10-year-old son to the cornerstore to buy you a bottle of whisky. You can also speak out against the government -- and quite loudly, at that -- just as people have been doing over recent weeks/months: > https://apnews.com/article/serbia-students-protest-vucic-canopy-collapse-belgrade-e5cb4c41543308844628d11ea86920b9 https://apnews.com/article/serbia-students-protest-vucic-can... I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia. (But I can think of many things that are possible in Serbia yet illegal or impossible in the UK or US!) All things considered, it feels much more free than any part of the USA. Serbian cops are friendly, there's no ubiquitous middleman grifting or gatekeeping, and one is basically free to do and say what one likes.

blibble 2y ago
> I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia. how about declaring yourself Kosovan?
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  How exactly, practically speaking? If you just walk around and tell people that you're a Kosovan, or post about it online, they'll think you're either a militant/reactionary agitator or a lunatic. You might get some dirty looks, but you're not going to get thrown into prison. If you're talking about taking real political action, sure, that would be a bad idea. But I can think of a lot of similar things (effectively things that aim to destabilize the government or foment civil unrest) that are similarly illegal in places like Germany/UK/etc.
Archelaos 2y ago
There is much more to the state of civil rights than the behaviour of the police towards foreign tourists. For some "real" issues see for example the Amnesty International short report of the state of human rights in Serbia 2023: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/western-central-and-south-eastern-europe/serbia/report-serbia/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  Those are hardly real issues -- the summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia. And how about this point? "Violence against women and girls: During the year, at least 27 women were victims of femicide." 27 out of how many millions? What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
  - Archelaos 2y ago
    > Those are hardly real issues Until you are the victim. > The summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia. Right so. Atrocities should never be forgotten, no matter who they are associated with. > What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK? The femicide rate in the USA is 3½ times higher. Each single case is one too many.
protocolture 2y ago
I used to have some serbian staff, and this seems mostly true, but they had one hell of a time contracting globally. Basically in a lot of countries you either are a FT equivalent and get bennies or you are not an FTE and get nada. But the serbs had some social outrage over foreign companies contracting to their citizens but not paying tax in that country. From what I gather its due to healthcare costs. So they did something, (difficult for me to ingest as a foreigner) but it seems that either: 1. You have to register and pay corporate tax in Serbia, then you can hire locals without issue 2. The staff member has to register as a business and pay corporate + payroll tax or they do it dodgy and hope the tax man doesnt ruin their life. This had the effect of creating a cottage industry of middlemen who take a slice between employer and employee which is probably the least freedom oriented outcome possible.
- lores 2y ago
  That's not unlike IR35 rules in the UK, where the government got sick of contractors acting as employees behind a limited company veil, paying a lot less tax overall. Companies wishing to hire contractors must absolutely not treat them like employees, those that are must be employed by an umbrella company and pay regular payroll taxes. HMRC, who pushed for the law, is however exempt and hires contractors the old way, outrageously enough.

blibble 2y ago

> I can think of nothing that's permissible in the USA or UK that's not possible in Serbia. how about declaring yourself Kosovan?

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
How exactly, practically speaking? If you just walk around and tell people that you're a Kosovan, or post about it online, they'll think you're either a militant/reactionary agitator or a lunatic. You might get some dirty looks, but you're not going to get thrown into prison. If you're talking about taking real political action, sure, that would be a bad idea. But I can think of a lot of similar things (effectively things that aim to destabilize the government or foment civil unrest) that are similarly illegal in places like Germany/UK/etc.

Archelaos 2y ago

There is much more to the state of civil rights than the behaviour of the police towards foreign tourists. For some "real" issues see for example the Amnesty International short report of the state of human rights in Serbia 2023: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/western-central-and-south-eastern-europe/serbia/report-serbia/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/...

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
Those are hardly real issues -- the summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia. And how about this point? "Violence against women and girls: During the year, at least 27 women were victims of femicide." 27 out of how many millions? What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK?
- Archelaos 2y ago
  > Those are hardly real issues Until you are the victim. > The summary at that link mostly attempts to relitigate an old war and shame Serbia for perceived associations with Russia. Right so. Atrocities should never be forgotten, no matter who they are associated with. > What's the per capita rate compared to the US and UK? The femicide rate in the USA is 3½ times higher. Each single case is one too many.

protocolture 2y ago

I used to have some serbian staff, and this seems mostly true, but they had one hell of a time contracting globally. Basically in a lot of countries you either are a FT equivalent and get bennies or you are not an FTE and get nada. But the serbs had some social outrage over foreign companies contracting to their citizens but not paying tax in that country. From what I gather its due to healthcare costs. So they did something, (difficult for me to ingest as a foreigner) but it seems that either: 1. You have to register and pay corporate tax in Serbia, then you can hire locals without issue 2. The staff member has to register as a business and pay corporate + payroll tax or they do it dodgy and hope the tax man doesnt ruin their life. This had the effect of creating a cottage industry of middlemen who take a slice between employer and employee which is probably the least freedom oriented outcome possible.

lores 2y ago
That's not unlike IR35 rules in the UK, where the government got sick of contractors acting as employees behind a limited company veil, paying a lot less tax overall. Companies wishing to hire contractors must absolutely not treat them like employees, those that are must be employed by an umbrella company and pay regular payroll taxes. HMRC, who pushed for the law, is however exempt and hires contractors the old way, outrageously enough.