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For #1: Ask any coffee professional (someone who actually knows what they're doing). Or just go walk around. Try to find a cafe which is using different porta

For #1: Ask any coffee professional (someone who actually knows what they're doing). Or just go walk around. Try to find a cafe which is using different portafilters with single spouts (an indication of a single shot basket). Or ask them. Buy a single espresso and watch what they do. You will never see them use a single shot basket or a single spouted portafilter. You will always see them split a double. For #2: Since nobody is using single shot baskets, and no reputable coffee shop is setting aside split shots to use in someone else's drink, the only time it would make sense to make a coffee from a single shot is if it would be too intense with a double (hard to imagine). The alternative is just wasting coffee in most cases except when you're lucky and your customers order drinks where you can use the other split shot. But I don't really see anyone splitting shots for milk drinks, maybe I've not paid enough attention as I don't drink them that often. Either way, you're still brewing a double shot. You can again, just watch what they're doing. I've never seen a coffee shop where you can't see the bar and the machine. Just watch what happens. Lastly, you can't dial in a single shot basket and a double shot basket at the same time, you need to have dedicated grinders dialled in for both. Nobody outside of Italy bothers with that. For specialty cafes you'd be doubling the number of dialled in grinders which would be especially impractical.

layoric 2y ago
> you need to have dedicated grinders dialled in for both. Nobody outside of Italy bothers with that. Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull. It's a big world out there mate, might be more of an isolated cultural thing than you realize or my neck of the woods is special. Either way, likely varies.
- Arch-TK 2y ago
  > Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull. This is just not how espresso works. You can dose the same grind into a double basket and a single basket and you will never get the same coffee out of both. Maybe Australia is special but in Europe, the UK and America, except for Italy (and apparently some surrounding places) nobody is using single shot baskets. This is jusg a well known fact in the coffee industry.
MichaelZuo 2y ago
This reply doesn’t make sense… your own words and opinions can’t substitute for providing sources. Unless you have some extraordinay amount of authority and/or credibility above and beyond that of the other HN users contradicting?
- Arch-TK 2y ago
  I don't carry around sources for well established industry wide facts which you can verify yourself by opening your eyes. Do you carry around a source that proves that using a keyboard to type is faster than using morse code? James Hoffman (coffee professional, winner of WBC) discusses the obscurity of single dose baskets in his video here. He mentions they're not often used in the home because he is discussing home espresso but the 50 caveats of single dose baskets apply to the industry too. https://youtu.be/3oFV88PzEFE?si=_cUs33SeovZ0jHYJ&t=549 https://youtu.be/3oFV88PzEFE?si=_cUs33SeovZ0jHYJ&t=549 Discussion of single baskets by The Wired Gourmet pointing out that in the industry double and triple baskets are used and split in vast preference to single shot baskets. Also covering the difficulty of working with single shot baskets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OnH2Woluck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OnH2Woluck The Real Sprometheus video talking about single shot baskets, their obscurity, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XariiJiHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XariiJiHk A cafe owner talking about why single shot baskets are not worth it in a commercial environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N3OlSa-4Wg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N3OlSa-4Wg The reason people in this section are disagreeing with me is because they have never made specialty espresso and have no idea how difficult it is to dial in a single basket, even if you're a cafe.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    And what of the second claim? “All espresso based drinks” seems incredibly broad.
    - Kirby64 2y ago
      Again, this only takes basic experience in coffee/cafe drinks to understand this is true. The standard espresso based drinks are: espresso, cappuccino, latte, macchiato, cortado, flat white, americano, mocha, and a few other varieties. Every single one of those starts with a double shot of espresso (~1.5-2 fl oz of liquid). This is sometimes even referred to as a 'single shot' even though 1.5oz would put you in what is considered a double shot. There may be some niche drinks that use less espresso liquid, but they're not common. If I was only given 0.8 fl oz (which, is what a single shot looks like) in an espresso drink I would be upset.
jjcob 2y ago
At least in Austria, this seems to be a recent phenomenon, and limited to "fancy" coffee places. I was surprised the first time I saw the barista throw away half the coffee when I ordered an espresso. I don't have statistics, but I think that single spout portafilters are still common in traditional Austrian cafes. I agree that you can't perfectly dial in the grinder for both single and double shot, but only a minority of people care about James Hoffmann levels of perfection and outside of speciality coffee shops nobody drinks light roasts. One curious thing I saw in a bar in Italy that their machine had a much smaller diameter portafilter, so they can make a 7g shot without these conical sieves.
- Arch-TK 2y ago
  Coffee is extremely finnicky and its really not as easy as you think to make even a passable shot when going between baskets with different doses. Even with an Italian dark roast. This isn't about making amazing shots of light roast coffee, it's about the difference between an acidic and a bitter coffee. If your customers are buying and drinking straight espresso (also uncommon outside of Italy and some bordering countries) then they will notice and complain. Although I guess since most people in these regions drink singles, maybe cafes dial in for the single and just YOLO the double. I don't know much about how Italian cafes are ran as I am simply not into that style of coffee nor do I live in Italy. Outside of these regions where its common to drink straight espresso, most cafes just half ass the dialing in and if you ask for espresso its usually varying kinds of mediocre to trash. Regardless, nobody uses single baskets. In the specialty cafes where you can order a straight espresso and expect something decent to amazing, you also never see single baskets and single shots just result from a split with half of the shot wasted or in another concurrent customer's cup. Regarding Austria, it seems like countries which border Italy also seem to often do single shots too. I didnt consider this but it also doesn't surprise me. Regarding the portafilter, the industry has standardized on 58mm group heads in the commercial setting but there are still some smaller diameter machines out there which make pulling smaller shots much easier. There are currently almost no new commercial machines in that format but its entirely possible it will change in the future. I for one am considering buying an adapter for 49mm baskets so I can more easily extract good light roast espresso without needing the larger doses.

layoric 2y ago

> you need to have dedicated grinders dialled in for both. Nobody outside of Italy bothers with that. Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull. It's a big world out there mate, might be more of an isolated cultural thing than you realize or my neck of the woods is special. Either way, likely varies.

Arch-TK 2y ago
> Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull. This is just not how espresso works. You can dose the same grind into a double basket and a single basket and you will never get the same coffee out of both. Maybe Australia is special but in Europe, the UK and America, except for Italy (and apparently some surrounding places) nobody is using single shot baskets. This is jusg a well known fact in the coffee industry.

MichaelZuo 2y ago

This reply doesn’t make sense… your own words and opinions can’t substitute for providing sources. Unless you have some extraordinay amount of authority and/or credibility above and beyond that of the other HN users contradicting?

Arch-TK 2y ago
I don't carry around sources for well established industry wide facts which you can verify yourself by opening your eyes. Do you carry around a source that proves that using a keyboard to type is faster than using morse code? James Hoffman (coffee professional, winner of WBC) discusses the obscurity of single dose baskets in his video here. He mentions they're not often used in the home because he is discussing home espresso but the 50 caveats of single dose baskets apply to the industry too. https://youtu.be/3oFV88PzEFE?si=_cUs33SeovZ0jHYJ&t=549 https://youtu.be/3oFV88PzEFE?si=_cUs33SeovZ0jHYJ&t=549 Discussion of single baskets by The Wired Gourmet pointing out that in the industry double and triple baskets are used and split in vast preference to single shot baskets. Also covering the difficulty of working with single shot baskets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OnH2Woluck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OnH2Woluck The Real Sprometheus video talking about single shot baskets, their obscurity, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XariiJiHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XariiJiHk A cafe owner talking about why single shot baskets are not worth it in a commercial environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N3OlSa-4Wg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N3OlSa-4Wg The reason people in this section are disagreeing with me is because they have never made specialty espresso and have no idea how difficult it is to dial in a single basket, even if you're a cafe.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  And what of the second claim? “All espresso based drinks” seems incredibly broad.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    Again, this only takes basic experience in coffee/cafe drinks to understand this is true. The standard espresso based drinks are: espresso, cappuccino, latte, macchiato, cortado, flat white, americano, mocha, and a few other varieties. Every single one of those starts with a double shot of espresso (~1.5-2 fl oz of liquid). This is sometimes even referred to as a 'single shot' even though 1.5oz would put you in what is considered a double shot. There may be some niche drinks that use less espresso liquid, but they're not common. If I was only given 0.8 fl oz (which, is what a single shot looks like) in an espresso drink I would be upset.

jjcob 2y ago

At least in Austria, this seems to be a recent phenomenon, and limited to "fancy" coffee places. I was surprised the first time I saw the barista throw away half the coffee when I ordered an espresso. I don't have statistics, but I think that single spout portafilters are still common in traditional Austrian cafes. I agree that you can't perfectly dial in the grinder for both single and double shot, but only a minority of people care about James Hoffmann levels of perfection and outside of speciality coffee shops nobody drinks light roasts. One curious thing I saw in a bar in Italy that their machine had a much smaller diameter portafilter, so they can make a 7g shot without these conical sieves.

Arch-TK 2y ago
Coffee is extremely finnicky and its really not as easy as you think to make even a passable shot when going between baskets with different doses. Even with an Italian dark roast. This isn't about making amazing shots of light roast coffee, it's about the difference between an acidic and a bitter coffee. If your customers are buying and drinking straight espresso (also uncommon outside of Italy and some bordering countries) then they will notice and complain. Although I guess since most people in these regions drink singles, maybe cafes dial in for the single and just YOLO the double. I don't know much about how Italian cafes are ran as I am simply not into that style of coffee nor do I live in Italy. Outside of these regions where its common to drink straight espresso, most cafes just half ass the dialing in and if you ask for espresso its usually varying kinds of mediocre to trash. Regardless, nobody uses single baskets. In the specialty cafes where you can order a straight espresso and expect something decent to amazing, you also never see single baskets and single shots just result from a split with half of the shot wasted or in another concurrent customer's cup. Regarding Austria, it seems like countries which border Italy also seem to often do single shots too. I didnt consider this but it also doesn't surprise me. Regarding the portafilter, the industry has standardized on 58mm group heads in the commercial setting but there are still some smaller diameter machines out there which make pulling smaller shots much easier. There are currently almost no new commercial machines in that format but its entirely possible it will change in the future. I for one am considering buying an adapter for 49mm baskets so I can more easily extract good light roast espresso without needing the larger doses.