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Did Ukraine buy any F-16’s? No. They’ve benefitted from the generosity of the United States since 2017, and thanks in large part to that generosity they succeed

Did Ukraine buy any F-16’s? No. They’ve benefitted from the generosity of the United States since 2017, and thanks in large part to that generosity they succeeded in the defense of Kyiv in 2022. Now it’s 2025 and the war has been stalemated for a couple of years. Does the United States have an open-ended obligation to continue supporting, at its own expense, yet another forever war on the other side of the world? The United States is still being taken for granted. And I have to laugh at the implication that the American economy will be ruined by the effect on the American arms industry when almost every American ally was neglecting their own military, instead taking American security guarantees for granted.

lostdog 2y ago
Interesting how the exact phrases "forever war," "open-ended obligation," and "taken for granted" keep coming up. Always in comments that lack critical thought or explanation, and never support these talking points and just take them as a given. It's an attempt to pretend that real USA screwups, like Vietnam and Iraq II, are at all similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So, philwelch, please compare and contrast. Without just echoing what you've heard, what are the pros and cons of supporting Ukraine in fighting off Russia? ETA: Also "on the hook." As though Ukraine is forcing us to give them money?
- philwelch 2y ago
  Sophist.
darkhorn 2y ago
Then why USA was defending those countries in first place? Only for goodwill?
tguvot 2y ago
F-16 arrived from Netherlands as USA was unwilling to supply them. About defense of Kyiv, it has nothing to do with usa generosity and everything to do with creativity and a lot of luck. i'll suggest to read about how it was managed. there is a 50 pager released by uk miliary on this topic
- brokenmachine 2y ago
  Can you link to that report?
  - tguvot 2y ago
    can't find it :( looking myself for an hour already. too much junk on internet and it pushes only "new" stuff. but to sum up: - ukraine messed up by not anticipating attack from belorus through chernobyl - didn't anticipate russian airborn forces flying to hostomel airport on few dozens of helicopters and taking over it (as preparation for full blown deployment on 2 dozen of planes) got lucky with: - battle of ivankiv delayed russian forces moving to kyiv - shelled the crap out of hostomel airport, causing russians to loose control over it (airborn forces on planes literally made u-turn in the air ). i think only a couple of russians survived it. - blew up a few dams of small rivers, turning large area to impassable swamps what prevented russian forces from getting to hostomel to support paratroopers there. there was some russian unit of national guard or swat that somehow outrun rest of russian army and they decided to show initiative and play "capture the flag" in kyiv (not clear what exactly they planned), but they did manage to drive into kyiv in a couple of cars, and were all hunted down and killed within few hours
  - tguvot 2y ago
    i think this one https://chacr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/BAR-187-compressed.pdf https://chacr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/BAR-187-comp... it less comprehensive than i remembered (i was watching everything unfolded in real time back than) but still very interesting
    - brokenmachine 2y ago
      Thanks. This youtube video about Hostomel airport was interesting too. Battle for Hostomel Airport - Animated Analysis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ji7KqqEqg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ji7KqqEqg
      - tguvot 2y ago

lostdog 2y ago

Interesting how the exact phrases "forever war," "open-ended obligation," and "taken for granted" keep coming up. Always in comments that lack critical thought or explanation, and never support these talking points and just take them as a given. It's an attempt to pretend that real USA screwups, like Vietnam and Iraq II, are at all similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So, philwelch, please compare and contrast. Without just echoing what you've heard, what are the pros and cons of supporting Ukraine in fighting off Russia? ETA: Also "on the hook." As though Ukraine is forcing us to give them money?

philwelch 2y ago
Sophist.

darkhorn 2y ago

Then why USA was defending those countries in first place? Only for goodwill?

tguvot 2y ago

F-16 arrived from Netherlands as USA was unwilling to supply them. About defense of Kyiv, it has nothing to do with usa generosity and everything to do with creativity and a lot of luck. i'll suggest to read about how it was managed. there is a 50 pager released by uk miliary on this topic

brokenmachine 2y ago
Can you link to that report?
- tguvot 2y ago
  can't find it :( looking myself for an hour already. too much junk on internet and it pushes only "new" stuff. but to sum up: - ukraine messed up by not anticipating attack from belorus through chernobyl - didn't anticipate russian airborn forces flying to hostomel airport on few dozens of helicopters and taking over it (as preparation for full blown deployment on 2 dozen of planes) got lucky with: - battle of ivankiv delayed russian forces moving to kyiv - shelled the crap out of hostomel airport, causing russians to loose control over it (airborn forces on planes literally made u-turn in the air ). i think only a couple of russians survived it. - blew up a few dams of small rivers, turning large area to impassable swamps what prevented russian forces from getting to hostomel to support paratroopers there. there was some russian unit of national guard or swat that somehow outrun rest of russian army and they decided to show initiative and play "capture the flag" in kyiv (not clear what exactly they planned), but they did manage to drive into kyiv in a couple of cars, and were all hunted down and killed within few hours
- tguvot 2y ago
  i think this one https://chacr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/BAR-187-compressed.pdf https://chacr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/BAR-187-comp... it less comprehensive than i remembered (i was watching everything unfolded in real time back than) but still very interesting
  - brokenmachine 2y ago
    Thanks. This youtube video about Hostomel airport was interesting too. Battle for Hostomel Airport - Animated Analysis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ji7KqqEqg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ji7KqqEqg
    - tguvot 2y ago