4 ms·

Violent and sudden. What a firing squad execution looked like through my eyes

13 points by gfortaine 2y ago

duxup 2y ago
>where the three prison system volunteer shooters were It's strange to me that this isn't simply automated, although personally I don't think any state should be in the business of killing anyone outside of war and similar circumstances. I don't think states are capable of making these sorts of decisions accurately enough.
- bbor 2y ago
  Good instinct -- this is absolutely being explored in the academy[1], and IMO it's only a matter of time before Palantir, Anduril, or even Sauron (yes, all real companies interested in ideas like this...) start pitching such a product to the government. Besides the arguments I gave above for a firing squad being philosophically superior, it's just clearly way cheaper and way less likely to go wrong, especially if you don't even need to find three prison guards who are ready and able to shoot accurately. [1] Execution by Lethal Autonomous Mechanism: How Anti-Capital Punishment Arguments Might Lead to Automated Executions—and Why Such Automation Must Be Prevented: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5146574 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5146574
bbor 2y ago
Great, short article -- thanks for posting. I saw Richard Moore die Nov. 1, looking serenely at the ceiling as his lawyer, who became close to him while fighting for his life over a decade, wept... Also etched in my mind: Sigmon talking or mouthing toward his lawyer, trying to let him know he was OK before the hood went on. It literally sickens me that we've come so far yet have successfully seemed to extract the violence from capital punishment -- superficially, of course. There are certainly philosophical & political arguments for granting the state permission to murder captives, but I feel we should at the very least agree to not hide it; for our own sakes and those of our descendants, if nothing else. In this view, the firing squad is something of a macabre improvement. Really, it's the same way I feel about carnism: I'm not prepared to personally chastise someone for drawing a different line on when human pleasure outweighs the moral rights of animals, but you must acknowledge what you're doing. Again: failing to speak clearly about our moral choices is a dangerous, dangerous road.
- 0_____0 2y ago
  100% agree. Killing is a violent act. If you are unable to look at your actions as they are, if you must paralyze a man so he does not yell and moan as he dies, you have lost the moral authority to take his life.
- Levitating 2y ago
  The whole case of Richard Moore is confusing to me. He apparently killed in self-defense, three jurors requested his sentenced be changed, and he was considered harmless and rehabilitated in prison. Mentoring inmates and helping guards keep peace. What good came from his death? https://apnews.com/article/south-carolina-execution-richard-moore-clemency-e3e74f9309ec23eab220d93b7b0dfc29 https://apnews.com/article/south-carolina-execution-richard-...
  - tgv 2y ago
    That's very sad. What was he even guilty of? Or is the article that misleading?
- duxup 2y ago
  >failing to speak clearly about our moral choices is a dangerous, dangerous road. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes By Stephen Colbert about Christianity and the US: "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it."
9x39 2y ago
There's always the unresolved concern of the state killing people amid the uncertainty of a criminal conviction process. There's also an element of incompetence and cruelty to consider when executions cannot be done mercifully, ideally instantly and painlessly as a goal. Seems we stray pretty far from any such ideal though: "In its annual report on the use of capital punishment in the country, the Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) said on Friday that seven of the 20 attempted executions by US states in 2022 were “visibly problematic”." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/16/us-botched-executions-reach-all-time-high-report-finds https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/16/us-botched-executi... The same policy group estimates a 3% failure rate for executions from 1890-2010, with lethal injection at more than twice that, at 7%. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions The state/federal definitions of botched executions might be more conservative than more detailed analyses done by advocacy groups like Reprieve, so what the rates are might be higher depending on the exact definition of a botched execution. It's not clear that firing squad 'fixes' this or is more merciful in terms of having less botched execution, but maybe that's not the point since the condemned prisoner opted for it. Does that matter? Worse still, there are pop groups that have apparently have significantly worse outcomes in US executions, reasons unknown. It's pretty horrible to look at an overall botched-execution rate when it belies horrible outcomes for specific groups: "One of the most significant findings to emerge from the regression analysis is that Black people had 220% higher odds of suffering a botched execution than white people, accounting for gender and age. Analysis of the lethal injection executions conducted in the modern era of capital punishment found that 8% of executions of Black people were botched (37 executions out of a total of 465 executions), compared to 4% of executions of white people in the same time period (28 out of a total of 780 executions)." https://reprieve.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/2024_04_17_PUB-Botched-lethal-injection-report-FINAL.pdf https://reprieve.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/2024...
- CaffeineLD50 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tgv 2y ago
CaffeineLD50 2y ago
[flagged]
- duxup 2y ago
  Killing who we think did the thing doesn't change anything.
  - CaffeineLD50 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - duxup 2y ago
      I don't see what telling them means here, if they had no families would that matter? It still doesn't change the end result ... and that's assuming you kill the right person. States aren't good at that.
      - CaffeineLD50 2y ago
        [flagged]
        duxup 2y ago
        [flagged]
        CaffeineLD50 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've unfortunately been doing it a lot with this account, in multiple threads. We have to ban accounts that do this because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
mekane8 2y ago
This was a well-written article, I appreciate the simple journalism on display. A reporter dedicating themselves to an area, showing up faithfully and reporting their observations without bias or personal commentary. What else could we ask for? I read it on the AP app and appreciated still having a source for this kind of thing.

13 points by gfortaine 2y ago

>where the three prison system volunteer shooters were It's strange to me that this isn't simply automated, although personally I don't think any state should be in the business of killing anyone outside of war and similar circumstances. I don't think states are capable of making these sorts of decisions accurately enough.

bbor 2y ago
Good instinct -- this is absolutely being explored in the academy[1], and IMO it's only a matter of time before Palantir, Anduril, or even Sauron (yes, all real companies interested in ideas like this...) start pitching such a product to the government. Besides the arguments I gave above for a firing squad being philosophically superior, it's just clearly way cheaper and way less likely to go wrong, especially if you don't even need to find three prison guards who are ready and able to shoot accurately. [1] Execution by Lethal Autonomous Mechanism: How Anti-Capital Punishment Arguments Might Lead to Automated Executions—and Why Such Automation Must Be Prevented: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5146574 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5146574

bbor 2y ago

Great, short article -- thanks for posting. I saw Richard Moore die Nov. 1, looking serenely at the ceiling as his lawyer, who became close to him while fighting for his life over a decade, wept... Also etched in my mind: Sigmon talking or mouthing toward his lawyer, trying to let him know he was OK before the hood went on. It literally sickens me that we've come so far yet have successfully seemed to extract the violence from capital punishment -- superficially, of course. There are certainly philosophical & political arguments for granting the state permission to murder captives, but I feel we should at the very least agree to not hide it; for our own sakes and those of our descendants, if nothing else. In this view, the firing squad is something of a macabre improvement. Really, it's the same way I feel about carnism: I'm not prepared to personally chastise someone for drawing a different line on when human pleasure outweighs the moral rights of animals, but you must acknowledge what you're doing. Again: failing to speak clearly about our moral choices is a dangerous, dangerous road.

0_____0 2y ago
100% agree. Killing is a violent act. If you are unable to look at your actions as they are, if you must paralyze a man so he does not yell and moan as he dies, you have lost the moral authority to take his life.
Levitating 2y ago
The whole case of Richard Moore is confusing to me. He apparently killed in self-defense, three jurors requested his sentenced be changed, and he was considered harmless and rehabilitated in prison. Mentoring inmates and helping guards keep peace. What good came from his death? https://apnews.com/article/south-carolina-execution-richard-moore-clemency-e3e74f9309ec23eab220d93b7b0dfc29 https://apnews.com/article/south-carolina-execution-richard-...
- tgv 2y ago
  That's very sad. What was he even guilty of? Or is the article that misleading?
duxup 2y ago
>failing to speak clearly about our moral choices is a dangerous, dangerous road. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes By Stephen Colbert about Christianity and the US: "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it."

9x39 2y ago

There's always the unresolved concern of the state killing people amid the uncertainty of a criminal conviction process. There's also an element of incompetence and cruelty to consider when executions cannot be done mercifully, ideally instantly and painlessly as a goal. Seems we stray pretty far from any such ideal though: "In its annual report on the use of capital punishment in the country, the Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) said on Friday that seven of the 20 attempted executions by US states in 2022 were “visibly problematic”." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/16/us-botched-executions-reach-all-time-high-report-finds https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/16/us-botched-executi... The same policy group estimates a 3% failure rate for executions from 1890-2010, with lethal injection at more than twice that, at 7%. https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/botched-executions The state/federal definitions of botched executions might be more conservative than more detailed analyses done by advocacy groups like Reprieve, so what the rates are might be higher depending on the exact definition of a botched execution. It's not clear that firing squad 'fixes' this or is more merciful in terms of having less botched execution, but maybe that's not the point since the condemned prisoner opted for it. Does that matter? Worse still, there are pop groups that have apparently have significantly worse outcomes in US executions, reasons unknown. It's pretty horrible to look at an overall botched-execution rate when it belies horrible outcomes for specific groups: "One of the most significant findings to emerge from the regression analysis is that Black people had 220% higher odds of suffering a botched execution than white people, accounting for gender and age. Analysis of the lethal injection executions conducted in the modern era of capital punishment found that 8% of executions of Black people were botched (37 executions out of a total of 465 executions), compared to 4% of executions of white people in the same time period (28 out of a total of 780 executions)." https://reprieve.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/2024_04_17_PUB-Botched-lethal-injection-report-FINAL.pdf https://reprieve.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/04/2024...

CaffeineLD50 2y ago
[flagged]
- tgv 2y ago

CaffeineLD50 2y ago

[flagged]

duxup 2y ago
Killing who we think did the thing doesn't change anything.
- CaffeineLD50 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - duxup 2y ago
    I don't see what telling them means here, if they had no families would that matter? It still doesn't change the end result ... and that's assuming you kill the right person. States aren't good at that.
    - CaffeineLD50 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - duxup 2y ago
        [flagged]
        CaffeineLD50 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've unfortunately been doing it a lot with this account, in multiple threads. We have to ban accounts that do this because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

mekane8 2y ago

This was a well-written article, I appreciate the simple journalism on display. A reporter dedicating themselves to an area, showing up faithfully and reporting their observations without bias or personal commentary. What else could we ask for? I read it on the AP app and appreciated still having a source for this kind of thing.