4 ms·

20% of Israel citizenship is Arab, they get equal rights. Parliamentary representatives etc. they even get affirmative action in getting higher education. Is it

by mola 2y ago

20% of Israel citizenship is Arab, they get equal rights. Parliamentary representatives etc. they even get affirmative action in getting higher education. Is it perfect? No Half the country is fighting the other half to keep us a western democracy. But every time ignorants post half baked opinions and paint us as pure evil, more ppl here say, fuck it.

bigyabai 2y ago
Much like how Americans can be good people under asinine leadership, Israel ends up criticized for the actions taken by their government. If Israel wanted a goody-two-shoes relationship with their neighbors then they should have considered that when they annexed the Golan Heights.
ssssvd 2y ago
I have Israeli friends across the spectrum (except maybe ultra-orthodox, but including Ukrainian/Russian olim). I also have friends from Lebanon (not even Arabs). They all share different stories, many of them very ugly ones, — and not just about Palestinians. And many of them are Jewish and critical of Jewish policies. I know plenty of Israelis who are genuinely trying, and there are many of liberal-minded people with their conscience absolutely in the right place. I don't want to badmouth any of them. My point is — if the same level of "trying" happened elsewhere (like in Xinjiang), Americans and Europeans would instantly brand it the worst kind of totalitarianism. It's astonishing how the same first-rank predators who've been devouring the world for 500 years now posture as moral messiahs. And that's coming from me — one of them.
- YZF 2y ago
  Don't let anecdotes shape your perception of reality. I have a feeling you're not familiar enough with the details. Parent is correct. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs who generally enjoy equal rights. They are members of Knesset, they are judges, they are in tech, they are in academia. Some of them serve in the IDF (though that's an area that can still use improvement). It's as far from totalitarianism as can be. And there's plenty of that in the world your Americans and Europeans let slide when it's in their interest. Most of the world is not free and democratic: https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel "Jewish policies"? What's that? Ask your friends from Lebanon what happened to the Christian majority that used to exist in that country? Or what happened to the Jews that used to live there?
  - ssssvd 2y ago
    My Lebanese friends are Armenian Gregorians, so I tend to consider their perspective relatively impartial — though, as you rightly noted, it remains anecdotal. As for 'Jewish policies', there are, of course, issues around settlers, the West Bank, and Gaza. My own view on Gaza doesn't favour any particular side - it's a deeply complex and painful topic, and I recognise the trauma is still fresh. But I was referring to a different angle. Many of my Israeli friends are deeply frustrated by the influence of the ultra-Orthodox community and the state policies shaped by that influence - whether it's on women's rights, voting rights for Israeli Arabs, or broader social norms. It's increasingly concerning given the explosive proportional growth of this community, which is on track to represent a third of Israel's population within a few decades. And yet, the topic of the ultra-Orthodox and their influence is exceedingly rare in the West. I wouldn’t have been aware of it myself if I hadn’t had a personal experience. Years ago, a girl who had run away - literally - from a Hasidic community arrived in the UK, desperately looking for a way to stay. She was applying for jobs, including a position I had open. Meanwhile, she was staying with some soft-hearted Jewish family, working as a nanny for their kids. I still remember her eyes and the dedication — and desperation — in her voice. My CTO at the time, an Israeli ex-IDF intelligence guy, soft-pushed me to hire her, even though she was absolutely unqualified. He told me, 'These people have enough resolve to become anything.' I didn’t budge. But I’ve never forgotten that experience.
    - YZF 2y ago
      My beef with the term 'Jewish policies', if it wasn't clear, was the mix of opinions about the Jewish people, Israel, and certain political powers within Israel. To me when people just mix "Jewish" and "Israel" that is either a sign of ignorance or a sign of animosity. But feels like this was just an honest mistake. The ultra-orthodox and the Arabs are large minorities in Israel. They are actually similar in many ways as neither serves in the IDF and so both are "discriminated" against. In some ways the ultra-orthdoc are more anti-Zionist than the Arabs and I don't know they hold any specific policies on Arab voting rights in general (though their political parties align opportunistically with the Israeli right).
  - KaiserPro 2y ago
immibis 2y ago
They have equal rights on paper, not in reality.

by mola 2y ago

bigyabai 2y ago

Much like how Americans can be good people under asinine leadership, Israel ends up criticized for the actions taken by their government. If Israel wanted a goody-two-shoes relationship with their neighbors then they should have considered that when they annexed the Golan Heights.

ssssvd 2y ago

I have Israeli friends across the spectrum (except maybe ultra-orthodox, but including Ukrainian/Russian olim). I also have friends from Lebanon (not even Arabs). They all share different stories, many of them very ugly ones, — and not just about Palestinians. And many of them are Jewish and critical of Jewish policies. I know plenty of Israelis who are genuinely trying, and there are many of liberal-minded people with their conscience absolutely in the right place. I don't want to badmouth any of them. My point is — if the same level of "trying" happened elsewhere (like in Xinjiang), Americans and Europeans would instantly brand it the worst kind of totalitarianism. It's astonishing how the same first-rank predators who've been devouring the world for 500 years now posture as moral messiahs. And that's coming from me — one of them.

YZF 2y ago
Don't let anecdotes shape your perception of reality. I have a feeling you're not familiar enough with the details. Parent is correct. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs who generally enjoy equal rights. They are members of Knesset, they are judges, they are in tech, they are in academia. Some of them serve in the IDF (though that's an area that can still use improvement). It's as far from totalitarianism as can be. And there's plenty of that in the world your Americans and Europeans let slide when it's in their interest. Most of the world is not free and democratic: https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel "Jewish policies"? What's that? Ask your friends from Lebanon what happened to the Christian majority that used to exist in that country? Or what happened to the Jews that used to live there?
- ssssvd 2y ago
  My Lebanese friends are Armenian Gregorians, so I tend to consider their perspective relatively impartial — though, as you rightly noted, it remains anecdotal. As for 'Jewish policies', there are, of course, issues around settlers, the West Bank, and Gaza. My own view on Gaza doesn't favour any particular side - it's a deeply complex and painful topic, and I recognise the trauma is still fresh. But I was referring to a different angle. Many of my Israeli friends are deeply frustrated by the influence of the ultra-Orthodox community and the state policies shaped by that influence - whether it's on women's rights, voting rights for Israeli Arabs, or broader social norms. It's increasingly concerning given the explosive proportional growth of this community, which is on track to represent a third of Israel's population within a few decades. And yet, the topic of the ultra-Orthodox and their influence is exceedingly rare in the West. I wouldn’t have been aware of it myself if I hadn’t had a personal experience. Years ago, a girl who had run away - literally - from a Hasidic community arrived in the UK, desperately looking for a way to stay. She was applying for jobs, including a position I had open. Meanwhile, she was staying with some soft-hearted Jewish family, working as a nanny for their kids. I still remember her eyes and the dedication — and desperation — in her voice. My CTO at the time, an Israeli ex-IDF intelligence guy, soft-pushed me to hire her, even though she was absolutely unqualified. He told me, 'These people have enough resolve to become anything.' I didn’t budge. But I’ve never forgotten that experience.
  - YZF 2y ago
    My beef with the term 'Jewish policies', if it wasn't clear, was the mix of opinions about the Jewish people, Israel, and certain political powers within Israel. To me when people just mix "Jewish" and "Israel" that is either a sign of ignorance or a sign of animosity. But feels like this was just an honest mistake. The ultra-orthodox and the Arabs are large minorities in Israel. They are actually similar in many ways as neither serves in the IDF and so both are "discriminated" against. In some ways the ultra-orthdoc are more anti-Zionist than the Arabs and I don't know they hold any specific policies on Arab voting rights in general (though their political parties align opportunistically with the Israeli right).
- KaiserPro 2y ago

immibis 2y ago

They have equal rights on paper, not in reality.