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>I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. M

by dtquad 2y ago

>I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Most leftist political parties in Scandinavia and the Baltics manages to be be both pro-Palestine, pro-NATO, and pro-Ukraine. They don't seen any contradiction because there aren't any. Why do some American leftists follow this 3rd worldist neo-Maoist thinking that Western civilization needs to burn down before you can get free healthcare and free college?

epistasis 2y ago
It's quite frustrating, but it's clear propaganda spread. There's a complete vacuum of media for leftists in the US, and a tiny amount of money goes a long ways to cementing desired propaganda. Seeing the entire left in the US turn on Ukraine calling them Nazis, when in fact they were occupied by Nazis, with all the terrors that entails, and were planned to have half their population killed and the other half enslaved to Nazis, well, it's red pilling. The left in the US is so weak and leaderless that it is easily co-opted to any sort of end.
- jayd16 2y ago
  What leftists are you talking about? These comments seem incredibly out of touch. Are we going to pretend the left elected Trump and these policies?
  - epistasis 2y ago
    DSA, Jacobin, Democracy Now, etc. etc. etc. have all been incredibly anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian invasion. This is in contrast to the left in much of the rest of the world, though not all places (e.g. the German left is filled with Vatniks, as is the UK, and nearly every communist party the world over). Electing Trump has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's about being mouthpieces for Russian propaganda.
    - slater 2y ago
      "DSA [...] has been incredibly anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian invasion" wait, what?
      - undersuit 2y ago
        Anti-war can easily be maligned as pro-aggressor.
        slater 2y ago
        Was gonna say, they're so pro-Russian invasion, they "condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and demand immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis" https://international.dsausa.org/ukraine/ https://international.dsausa.org/ukraine/
        epistasis 2y ago
        > We recognize that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose US and NATO military interventionism and the tens of billions in military aid and weapons shipments which only further exacerbates the war and undermine a negotiated settlement, as well as sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians. In the very first paragraph, filled with Russian propaganda and ahistorical takes easily disproven by Putin's own words and exegesis in Russian. Accepting the genocidaire's justifications uncritically, in addition to the IC's many other genocidal language about "denazification," is absolutely appalling. As they say, if you wonder what you would have been doing when the Nazis weee invading the world, look at what you are doing now.
        slater 2y ago
        so a hypothetical ("NATO expansion kinda not cool!") vs. reality (Russia invading a sovereign nation, causing an untold number of civilian and military deaths). These two things are similar!
    - 2y ago
wyre 2y ago
I find it mostly with younger people steeped in ideology and dogmatism, that reparations need to be made for a long history of imperialism.
whstl 2y ago
> Why do some American leftists follow this 3rd worldist neo-Maoist thinking that Western civilization needs to burn down before you can get free healthcare and free college? Let's be fair, you said "some". We also have some of those in Europe. But to answer, with a guess: perhaps the difference is that in European countries there are way more political parties. But I'm not an expert on American politics so feel free to say this is BS.
bongodongobob 2y ago
Probably because 2/3 of the population can't be reached. They either want to do whatever they can to be anti-left, even if it hurts themselves, or they don't care at all. So voting harder isn't going to work. All while education is being gutted. I honestly don't know what other options are left. Maybe turning states into their own countries and let them raw dog the world without any help from the federal govt. Idk, it's bleak.
sudosysgen 2y ago
3rd wolrdism also exists in Europe. I'm pretty sure it's far more popular. The reason why they feel overrepresented in the US is simply because a real, progressive leftist political project is essentially impossible, so the most extreme of the extremes are proportional more audible.

by dtquad 2y ago

epistasis 2y ago

It's quite frustrating, but it's clear propaganda spread. There's a complete vacuum of media for leftists in the US, and a tiny amount of money goes a long ways to cementing desired propaganda. Seeing the entire left in the US turn on Ukraine calling them Nazis, when in fact they were occupied by Nazis, with all the terrors that entails, and were planned to have half their population killed and the other half enslaved to Nazis, well, it's red pilling. The left in the US is so weak and leaderless that it is easily co-opted to any sort of end.

jayd16 2y ago
What leftists are you talking about? These comments seem incredibly out of touch. Are we going to pretend the left elected Trump and these policies?
- epistasis 2y ago
  DSA, Jacobin, Democracy Now, etc. etc. etc. have all been incredibly anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian invasion. This is in contrast to the left in much of the rest of the world, though not all places (e.g. the German left is filled with Vatniks, as is the UK, and nearly every communist party the world over). Electing Trump has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's about being mouthpieces for Russian propaganda.
  - slater 2y ago
    "DSA [...] has been incredibly anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian invasion" wait, what?
    - undersuit 2y ago
      Anti-war can easily be maligned as pro-aggressor.
      - slater 2y ago
        Was gonna say, they're so pro-Russian invasion, they "condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and demand immediate diplomacy and de-escalation to resolve this crisis" https://international.dsausa.org/ukraine/ https://international.dsausa.org/ukraine/
        epistasis 2y ago
        > We recognize that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose US and NATO military interventionism and the tens of billions in military aid and weapons shipments which only further exacerbates the war and undermine a negotiated settlement, as well as sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians. In the very first paragraph, filled with Russian propaganda and ahistorical takes easily disproven by Putin's own words and exegesis in Russian. Accepting the genocidaire's justifications uncritically, in addition to the IC's many other genocidal language about "denazification," is absolutely appalling. As they say, if you wonder what you would have been doing when the Nazis weee invading the world, look at what you are doing now.
        slater 2y ago
        so a hypothetical ("NATO expansion kinda not cool!") vs. reality (Russia invading a sovereign nation, causing an untold number of civilian and military deaths). These two things are similar!
  - 2y ago

wyre 2y ago

I find it mostly with younger people steeped in ideology and dogmatism, that reparations need to be made for a long history of imperialism.

whstl 2y ago

> Why do some American leftists follow this 3rd worldist neo-Maoist thinking that Western civilization needs to burn down before you can get free healthcare and free college? Let's be fair, you said "some". We also have some of those in Europe. But to answer, with a guess: perhaps the difference is that in European countries there are way more political parties. But I'm not an expert on American politics so feel free to say this is BS.

bongodongobob 2y ago

Probably because 2/3 of the population can't be reached. They either want to do whatever they can to be anti-left, even if it hurts themselves, or they don't care at all. So voting harder isn't going to work. All while education is being gutted. I honestly don't know what other options are left. Maybe turning states into their own countries and let them raw dog the world without any help from the federal govt. Idk, it's bleak.

sudosysgen 2y ago

3rd wolrdism also exists in Europe. I'm pretty sure it's far more popular. The reason why they feel overrepresented in the US is simply because a real, progressive leftist political project is essentially impossible, so the most extreme of the extremes are proportional more audible.