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Zelensky said ahead of time he wound sign it. The entire point of him visiting was to sign it. He insisted on coming in person to do it even though the White Ho

Zelensky said ahead of time he wound sign it. The entire point of him visiting was to sign it. He insisted on coming in person to do it even though the White House said it wasn’t necessary. What actually likely happened is that Democrats who met with Zelensky right before the meeting with Trump and Vance, like Chris Murphy, pressured or convinced Zelensky to reject the deal. This is disputed by the Democrats. So maybe it was something else - like simply a last minute impulsive choice by Zelensky. Either way it was unexpected that he would change his mind and would lead the event in a different direction. As for “no agreed benefit” - the benefit was continued US support in the short term until a peace is negotiated. After all this conflict has costed America something like 200 billion. European countries are not only providing less useful help to Ukraine, but also are extending loans rather than grants. But for American taxpayers this is a huge expense adding to the dangers of a debt spiral.

acdha 2y ago
Your “actually likely” take lasted exactly two sentences before you admit it wasn’t actually likely. You might want to reconsider your assumption that this was decided by the person with the least agency, especially when undisciplined revenge and extortion are well-established patterns by the guy who made the attack. He’s had a personal grudge since the events of his impeachment so the most parsimonious explanation is that this is exactly what it looks like.
snozolli 2y ago
As for “no agreed benefit” - the benefit was continued US support in the short term until a peace is negotiated. False: Ukraine had asked for security guarantees from the US as part of any agreement. The source said the draft of the deal includes a reference to "security", but does not explicitly set out the United States's role. "There is a general clause that says America will invest in a stable and prosperous sovereign Ukraine, that it works for a lasting peace, and that America supports efforts to guarantee security." There was no "deal". There was a contract where Ukraine would sign over minerals with nothing but vague platitudes. Ukraine has already been through that with Russia and denuclearization. Source: https://www.barrons.com/news/ukraine-has-agreed-on-terms-of-minerals-deal-with-us-senior-official-ee34ab2c https://www.barrons.com/news/ukraine-has-agreed-on-terms-of-... After all this conflict has costed America something like 200 billion. False: To date, we have provided $66.5 billion in military assistance since Russia launched its premeditated, unprovoked, and brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, and approximately $69.2 billion in military assistance since Russia’s initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014. We have now used the emergency Presidential Drawdown Authority on 55 occasions since August 2021 to provide Ukraine military assistance totaling approximately $31.7 billion from DoD stockpiles. Source: https://www.state.gov/bureau-of-political-military-affairs/releases/2025/01/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine https://www.state.gov/bureau-of-political-military-affairs/r... European countries are not only providing less useful help to Ukraine, but also are extending loans rather than grants. False: Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available close to $145 billion in financial, military, humanitarian, and refugee assistance, of which 65% have been provided as grants or in-kind support and 35% in the form of highly concessional loans.* Source: https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... But for American taxpayers this is a huge expense False. The US GDP is nearly $30 trillion. Our military spending is nearly $1 trillion. This is a drop in the bucket to support an ally and defend democracy from an aggressive dictator. Additionally, our aid allows us to dispose of old armaments that are otherwise costly to destroy, and our aid to Ukraine comes with long-term purchasing agreements for American weaponry. You are simply repeating disinformation.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I don’t have time to reply to all your points, so I’ll just pick a couple. > False: > To date, we have provided $66.5 billion in military assistance since Russia launched its premeditated, unprovoked, and brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, and approximately $69.2 billion in military assistance since Russia’s initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014. We have now used the emergency Presidential Drawdown Authority on 55 occasions since August 2021 to provide Ukraine military assistance totaling approximately $31.7 billion from DoD stockpiles. There’s a lot of editorialization here. But Russia was provoked. By NATO expansionism as well as the illegal coup in 2014 in Ukraine, which basically denied voting rights for the half of Ukraine that supported relations with Russia. As for the numbers - your numbers are misleading because they’re only about part of the what’s been set aside overall, which is indeed around 200 billion. > False. The US GDP is nearly $30 trillion. Our military spending is nearly $1 trillion. This is a drop in the bucket to support an ally and defend democracy from an aggressive dictator. Additionally, our aid allows us to dispose of old armaments that are otherwise costly to destroy, and our aid to Ukraine comes with long-term purchasing agreements for American weaponry. It’s not a drop in the bucket. It is a huge amount to anyone. It can be used in many other ways. They aren’t just “old armaments” - a lot of this equipment is still in service, usable in war, and at least can be sold to generate income and help taxpayers or pay off debt. Also Ukraine is not an ally.
  - snozolli 2y ago
    [flagged]

acdha 2y ago

Your “actually likely” take lasted exactly two sentences before you admit it wasn’t actually likely. You might want to reconsider your assumption that this was decided by the person with the least agency, especially when undisciplined revenge and extortion are well-established patterns by the guy who made the attack. He’s had a personal grudge since the events of his impeachment so the most parsimonious explanation is that this is exactly what it looks like.

snozolli 2y ago

As for “no agreed benefit” - the benefit was continued US support in the short term until a peace is negotiated. False: Ukraine had asked for security guarantees from the US as part of any agreement. The source said the draft of the deal includes a reference to "security", but does not explicitly set out the United States's role. "There is a general clause that says America will invest in a stable and prosperous sovereign Ukraine, that it works for a lasting peace, and that America supports efforts to guarantee security." There was no "deal". There was a contract where Ukraine would sign over minerals with nothing but vague platitudes. Ukraine has already been through that with Russia and denuclearization. Source: https://www.barrons.com/news/ukraine-has-agreed-on-terms-of-minerals-deal-with-us-senior-official-ee34ab2c https://www.barrons.com/news/ukraine-has-agreed-on-terms-of-... After all this conflict has costed America something like 200 billion. False: To date, we have provided $66.5 billion in military assistance since Russia launched its premeditated, unprovoked, and brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, and approximately $69.2 billion in military assistance since Russia’s initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014. We have now used the emergency Presidential Drawdown Authority on 55 occasions since August 2021 to provide Ukraine military assistance totaling approximately $31.7 billion from DoD stockpiles. Source: https://www.state.gov/bureau-of-political-military-affairs/releases/2025/01/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine https://www.state.gov/bureau-of-political-military-affairs/r... European countries are not only providing less useful help to Ukraine, but also are extending loans rather than grants. False: Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available close to $145 billion in financial, military, humanitarian, and refugee assistance, of which 65% have been provided as grants or in-kind support and 35% in the form of highly concessional loans.* Source: https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america... But for American taxpayers this is a huge expense False. The US GDP is nearly $30 trillion. Our military spending is nearly $1 trillion. This is a drop in the bucket to support an ally and defend democracy from an aggressive dictator. Additionally, our aid allows us to dispose of old armaments that are otherwise costly to destroy, and our aid to Ukraine comes with long-term purchasing agreements for American weaponry. You are simply repeating disinformation.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I don’t have time to reply to all your points, so I’ll just pick a couple. > False: > To date, we have provided $66.5 billion in military assistance since Russia launched its premeditated, unprovoked, and brutal full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, and approximately $69.2 billion in military assistance since Russia’s initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014. We have now used the emergency Presidential Drawdown Authority on 55 occasions since August 2021 to provide Ukraine military assistance totaling approximately $31.7 billion from DoD stockpiles. There’s a lot of editorialization here. But Russia was provoked. By NATO expansionism as well as the illegal coup in 2014 in Ukraine, which basically denied voting rights for the half of Ukraine that supported relations with Russia. As for the numbers - your numbers are misleading because they’re only about part of the what’s been set aside overall, which is indeed around 200 billion. > False. The US GDP is nearly $30 trillion. Our military spending is nearly $1 trillion. This is a drop in the bucket to support an ally and defend democracy from an aggressive dictator. Additionally, our aid allows us to dispose of old armaments that are otherwise costly to destroy, and our aid to Ukraine comes with long-term purchasing agreements for American weaponry. It’s not a drop in the bucket. It is a huge amount to anyone. It can be used in many other ways. They aren’t just “old armaments” - a lot of this equipment is still in service, usable in war, and at least can be sold to generate income and help taxpayers or pay off debt. Also Ukraine is not an ally.
- snozolli 2y ago
  [flagged]