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Trump/Musk/Republicans have taken the side of a fascist dictator Putin. Every recent move wrt Ukraine has benefitted Russia. Even if it means betraying democrat

Trump/Musk/Republicans have taken the side of a fascist dictator Putin. Every recent move wrt Ukraine has benefitted Russia. Even if it means betraying democratic allies and decades long alliances. It is so shameful and disgusting.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
Honestly curious what you, and proponents for continuing to arm Ukraine, think should be done about Russia's encroachment into Western Europe?
- rocqua 2y ago
  What encroachment do you mean? There isn't much encroachment other than sabotage. Perhaps some financing of undermining political parties. There was significant encroachment of eastern Europe, but that has slowed down due to attention going towards the Ukraine war. The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible. Luckily this is effectively wholly compatible with Ukrainian goals.
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    Sorry, I should have said encroachment towards the west, or really just "invasion of Ukraine". > The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible But how? Is it mostly to prolong the war until Russia gets tired of spending money and resources on it?
    - oezi 2y ago
      I wish Europe and the US would have just put their foot down and kicked out Russia swiftly and decisively in 2022. Rather the have adopted the doctrine of "Ukraine can't lose, but Ukraine may not win". Always supplying just enough arms to keep the Ukrainian front from collapsing not to "stir up" Russia.
      - davidmurdoch 2y ago
        Doesn't seem like that would have made anything better though. I thought the general consensus was that direct action would have just escalated things? I watched a video recently that discussed all the grudges against the West/NATO Russia (Putin) has been holding onto since the mids 90s that makes them feel justified now.
        oezi 2y ago
        But who cares if Putin escalates. He already is all-in to the tilt. If he had more he would deploy it. The only thing left would be nuking. He hasn't dared and likely won't.
        davidmurdoch 2y ago
        https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-west-missile-strikes-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-we... He has dared. Empty threats? Maybe... but that's quite the gamble to make. Edit: To downvoters... Why?
        oezi 2y ago
        Why is it a gamble for the West? On the contrary: Should Putin risk everything for some sq km of Ukrainian soil?
        davidmurdoch 2y ago
        I think he already answered that question long ago.
        jjk166 2y ago
        By not using nuclear weapons?
        jjk166 2y ago
    - rocqua 2y ago
      Drain Russia in the war. Make them pay for every day they are invading. Make them pay in human lives, make them pay in losy industrial output. Make them pay in economic welfare. Not just on Ukrainian soil. If at all possible, take back any Ukrainian territory. Reduce whatever gain they got from this invasion. But even if the current line stands, the more Russia can be made to bleed, the less it will think that war can be a net postive for them.
- tim333 2y ago
  People have different idea but roughly the Ukrainian plan seems to be hold the current lines approximately, destroy Russian assets and work on Russia collapsing economically to the extent they have to pull back a bit like their Afghanistan experience. Anders Puck Nielsen on that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZ56C-f4a8&t=422s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZ56C-f4a8&t=422s That's starting at the Ukrainian plan but it's worth watching the whole vid if you are interested.
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    Thanks! I'll watch it later.
- oezi 2y ago
  I am confused why you ask this of the proponents. The proponents think that Russia is performing horrendous war crimes and must be stopped from encroaching further. We see massacres such as Bucha where Russia had a couple of days and indiscriminately butchered innocent civilians and realized that there is no other way but to keep fighting to stop Russia from taking more territory and lives.
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    My question is more looking for what changes to the strategy are proposed? Arming Ukraine hasn't stopped Russia from these crimes so far. There's certainly some turning point point where US, or NATO, involvement will be seen as a declaration is war against Russia and it's allies, right? Another commenter suggest sent a video about this that I'll watch later, I suspect the answer lies there, but thought I'd share with you so you can have some understanding of what someone who sees both side's surface level plans as confusing and problematic .
    - oezi 2y ago
      Arming Ukraine has absolutely stopped Russia from advancing and stopped them from committing more crimes. Nothing will stop Putin but force. Russia has no allies, just cronies such as Lukashenko and Russia is de-facto at war with the west. The front line just goes through Ukraine.
      - davidmurdoch 2y ago
        Isn't Russia still advancing though? I've only been watching these video updates: https://youtu.be/G8jreLqRSXI?si=wopg1BQA1rc-jhfg https://youtu.be/G8jreLqRSXI?si=wopg1BQA1rc-jhfg
        oezi 2y ago
        At a pace that Ukraine can handle and allows to evacuate citizens. Of course, with the US under Trump withdrawing their support we will see what will happen, but currently it is a stalemate.
Jerrrrrry 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- oezi 2y ago
  You realize all the printed money goes towards European and US arms manufacturers and just creates jobs in Europe and the US? Even the billions in humanitarian support spend in Europe are mostly just housing refugees from Ukraine in Europe thus flows to landlords and supermarkets in Europe. This war in Ukraine is costing us pennies for each dollar that Russia is wasting in the blood fields of Ukraine.
  - Jerrrrrry 2y ago
    It doesnt create jobs in US. It is another bulk order of factory line-items for those already ingratiated with a comfy MIC contract. No one benefits except the neo-cons and the ones already with their feet up. Europe's bill may create jobs in Europe, if it was genuine. >billions in humanitarian support spend in Europe are mostly just housing refugees from Ukraine in Europe thus flows to landlords and supermarkets in Europe. I am sure printing money to then distribute to those with real estate property to house migrants is doing well for your housing/immigrant crises. >This war in Ukraine is costing us pennies for each dollar Approximately 46 pennies on every dollar that exists has been printed or misspent in the last 5 years. Now that the state-level propaganda machine is starting to wear down, the world is realizing that America wants America First.
    - oezi 2y ago
      > Approximately 46 pennies on every dollar that exists has been printed or misspent in the last 5 years. What does this even mean? And do you realize that most of American GDP prowess in the last 40 years was driven by running a trade deficit and letting the world loan the money back to the US?

davidmurdoch 2y ago

Honestly curious what you, and proponents for continuing to arm Ukraine, think should be done about Russia's encroachment into Western Europe?

rocqua 2y ago
What encroachment do you mean? There isn't much encroachment other than sabotage. Perhaps some financing of undermining political parties. There was significant encroachment of eastern Europe, but that has slowed down due to attention going towards the Ukraine war. The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible. Luckily this is effectively wholly compatible with Ukrainian goals.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  Sorry, I should have said encroachment towards the west, or really just "invasion of Ukraine". > The main goal in Ukraine should be to make sure that Russia has as little benefit from their invasion as possible But how? Is it mostly to prolong the war until Russia gets tired of spending money and resources on it?
  - oezi 2y ago
    I wish Europe and the US would have just put their foot down and kicked out Russia swiftly and decisively in 2022. Rather the have adopted the doctrine of "Ukraine can't lose, but Ukraine may not win". Always supplying just enough arms to keep the Ukrainian front from collapsing not to "stir up" Russia.
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      Doesn't seem like that would have made anything better though. I thought the general consensus was that direct action would have just escalated things? I watched a video recently that discussed all the grudges against the West/NATO Russia (Putin) has been holding onto since the mids 90s that makes them feel justified now.
      - oezi 2y ago
        But who cares if Putin escalates. He already is all-in to the tilt. If he had more he would deploy it. The only thing left would be nuking. He hasn't dared and likely won't.
        davidmurdoch 2y ago
        https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-west-missile-strikes-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/25/europe/putin-nuclear-warns-we... He has dared. Empty threats? Maybe... but that's quite the gamble to make. Edit: To downvoters... Why?
        oezi 2y ago
        Why is it a gamble for the West? On the contrary: Should Putin risk everything for some sq km of Ukrainian soil?
        davidmurdoch 2y ago
        I think he already answered that question long ago.
        jjk166 2y ago
        By not using nuclear weapons?
        jjk166 2y ago
  - rocqua 2y ago
    Drain Russia in the war. Make them pay for every day they are invading. Make them pay in human lives, make them pay in losy industrial output. Make them pay in economic welfare. Not just on Ukrainian soil. If at all possible, take back any Ukrainian territory. Reduce whatever gain they got from this invasion. But even if the current line stands, the more Russia can be made to bleed, the less it will think that war can be a net postive for them.
tim333 2y ago
People have different idea but roughly the Ukrainian plan seems to be hold the current lines approximately, destroy Russian assets and work on Russia collapsing economically to the extent they have to pull back a bit like their Afghanistan experience. Anders Puck Nielsen on that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZ56C-f4a8&t=422s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZ56C-f4a8&t=422s That's starting at the Ukrainian plan but it's worth watching the whole vid if you are interested.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  Thanks! I'll watch it later.
oezi 2y ago
I am confused why you ask this of the proponents. The proponents think that Russia is performing horrendous war crimes and must be stopped from encroaching further. We see massacres such as Bucha where Russia had a couple of days and indiscriminately butchered innocent civilians and realized that there is no other way but to keep fighting to stop Russia from taking more territory and lives.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  My question is more looking for what changes to the strategy are proposed? Arming Ukraine hasn't stopped Russia from these crimes so far. There's certainly some turning point point where US, or NATO, involvement will be seen as a declaration is war against Russia and it's allies, right? Another commenter suggest sent a video about this that I'll watch later, I suspect the answer lies there, but thought I'd share with you so you can have some understanding of what someone who sees both side's surface level plans as confusing and problematic .
  - oezi 2y ago
    Arming Ukraine has absolutely stopped Russia from advancing and stopped them from committing more crimes. Nothing will stop Putin but force. Russia has no allies, just cronies such as Lukashenko and Russia is de-facto at war with the west. The front line just goes through Ukraine.
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      Isn't Russia still advancing though? I've only been watching these video updates: https://youtu.be/G8jreLqRSXI?si=wopg1BQA1rc-jhfg https://youtu.be/G8jreLqRSXI?si=wopg1BQA1rc-jhfg
      - oezi 2y ago
        At a pace that Ukraine can handle and allows to evacuate citizens. Of course, with the US under Trump withdrawing their support we will see what will happen, but currently it is a stalemate.

Jerrrrrry 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
oezi 2y ago
You realize all the printed money goes towards European and US arms manufacturers and just creates jobs in Europe and the US? Even the billions in humanitarian support spend in Europe are mostly just housing refugees from Ukraine in Europe thus flows to landlords and supermarkets in Europe. This war in Ukraine is costing us pennies for each dollar that Russia is wasting in the blood fields of Ukraine.
- Jerrrrrry 2y ago
  It doesnt create jobs in US. It is another bulk order of factory line-items for those already ingratiated with a comfy MIC contract. No one benefits except the neo-cons and the ones already with their feet up. Europe's bill may create jobs in Europe, if it was genuine. >billions in humanitarian support spend in Europe are mostly just housing refugees from Ukraine in Europe thus flows to landlords and supermarkets in Europe. I am sure printing money to then distribute to those with real estate property to house migrants is doing well for your housing/immigrant crises. >This war in Ukraine is costing us pennies for each dollar Approximately 46 pennies on every dollar that exists has been printed or misspent in the last 5 years. Now that the state-level propaganda machine is starting to wear down, the world is realizing that America wants America First.
  - oezi 2y ago
    > Approximately 46 pennies on every dollar that exists has been printed or misspent in the last 5 years. What does this even mean? And do you realize that most of American GDP prowess in the last 40 years was driven by running a trade deficit and letting the world loan the money back to the US?