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NATO as has existed is already over. Nobody has any faith that the US will follow through on its Article 5 obligations.
by postingawayonhn 2y ago
NATO as has existed is already over. Nobody has any faith that the US will follow through on its Article 5 obligations.
- ozim 2y agoThe fun part - US is the only country that called Article 5.
- gotts 2y ago80+ countries to USA: "we want our money back, money spent on your war that shouldn't had happened in the first place"
- PartiallyTyped 2y agoThe clown in the oval office claimed we wouldn't help them. More Danish men died per capita in middle east because of article 5 than men from the US...
- sovietmudkipz 2y agoIf that’s the case that “NATO as has existed is already over” then maybe it is wise for the USA to pull out. Maybe that’s the endgame for Europe? Europe defends Europe (or gets taken over by Russia I guess), and USA isn’t on the hook for its defense anymore.
- JKCalhoun 2y agoIf Europe is taken over by Russia, you don't think the U.S. will be next?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- epoxy_sauce 2y agoIf Russia wants the international version of suicide by cop. Invading US soil is the next tier up from invading Russia in winter in military blunders. No one has been stupid enough to try since 1812 when the British navy ruled. And they couldn't achieve any meaningful goals.
- bad_haircut72 2y agoAmericans all have this attitude that theyre "on the hook" for everyone elses defence as if theyre the white knight defending the world against evil. Its more like the local mob tough guys who have been taking protection money for the last 40 years backed down when a rival gang finally decided to make a move
- CoastalCoder 2y agoPlease don't use sweeping generalizations like this. The hyperbole interferes with construction discussion.
- bad_haircut72 2y agoAre you a LLM? This is what the rest of the world feels mate!! Its a part of the discussion.
- CoastalCoder 2y agoThere are lots of sites you can visit to vent your emotions by making inflammatory, inaccurate generalizations to a receptive, cheering echo chamber. Let's not do that here.
- bad_haircut72 2y agoIts an accurate generalization
- CoastalCoder 2y ago> Americans all have this attitude ... > Its an accurate generalization I'm American, and I don't have that view. So it's clearly not literally true. So perhaps you mean that it's "mostly" true. Then I'd ask, what evidence do you have to support that? Is there some poll of public opinion you can refer to? That's something we could meaningfully discuss.
- jfengel 2y agoAmerica is pulling out. That is the only reason that NATO is ending.
- KaiserPro 2y agoNATO is there to make sure that the dollar is the dominant trading currency. NATO is the reason why saudis are trading in dollars. NATO is the reason that the US has credible nuclear deterrents NATO is why america doesn't need to have a physical colonial empire in europe (otherwise it'd need to subjugate cyprus, and somewhere like saaremaa, and that costs a shit tonne of money) NATO isn't about playing for defence of europe, its about keeping the USSR and russia far enough away to keep trading routes open.
- tim333 2y agoI'd say it's on hold for four years till they get a new president. In the meanwhile I guess the other members will have to try to manage.
- AlecSchueler 2y agoIn 4 years another administration could come in but there's still damaged trust. If something happens in 5, 6 years from now and article 5 kicks in then even if the US comes to help what is there to say they won't suddenly pull out again 2 years into a war when Vance takes charge? The reliability is gone.
- tim333 2y agoI guess you've got to be flexible depending on circumstances. I mean NATO only really got going after Europe elected Hitler and now we have another iffy electoral result to work with.
- AlecSchueler 2y agoWhat happened in Germany that allowed the US to trust them again?
- tim333 2y agoAfter the war they seem to have realised the error of their ways. I note with the recent Musk salute Germany had the largest fall in Tesla sales, 80%.
- AlecSchueler 2y agoI think they might have been helped along a little by things like being occupied, becoming economically and militarily reliant on their occupiers and watching all of their leaders face judgement at the Nuremberg Trials. Things haven't gotten quite so extreme in the US yet but it feels reductive to suggest that they can just have a flip flop election and that will show they "realised the error of their ways" like Germany did post WW2.
- hackinthebochs 2y agoDoes anyone think a country not already involved in a nuclear war would willingly expose itself to being annihilated? NATO works best when all member states are stable, ideologically aligned, and its Article 5 resolve is untested. Here the uncertainty works in its favor. But when NATO expands past deep ideological alignment towards a maximal expansionist strategy, and openly courts states its rival signals as core security interests, NATO becomes something else entirely. When it became a tool for maximally isolating Russia, it undermined its own credibility as a unified security entity. There is a genuine question whether the US would go "all in" to defend eastern european states. The fact that we can credibly ask this question about a NATO member just shows how far it's gone from its initial ideals.
- robwwilliams 2y agoWe need to remember the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurance and not forget that Ukraine was coaxed to give up its nuclear weapons in 1993 by a guarantee of territorial integrity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
- yesco 2y agoWhy do we need to remember this agreement that provided zero security guarantees? At most it ensures denuclearization is dead, but frankly speaking, it already was. Maybe instead we should remember the 2014 Wales Summit that was intended to deter Russian invasion? - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Wales_summit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Wales_summit Or maybe instead we should consider that right before Russia's invasion in February 2022, Europe collectively dropped their military spending as % of GDP? Possibly since Trump had left office in 2021? Its unfortunate deterrents don't function when you do this... -https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_222664.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_222664.htm Actually, maybe what we need to remember is that most of Europes money has been going to Russia even after the invasion? What a strange thing for allies to do right? - https://www.russiafossiltracker.com/ https://www.russiafossiltracker.com/ It's weird how the United States justified its support in Ukraine as securing the region for its allies while its allies undermined this at every step of the way, do allies usually do that? When I listen to them on TV they seem to care a lot about Ukraine so it's strange...
- outer_web 2y agoUkraine is already quietly divisive in Congress. If Russia were to roll into Poland I could see a legislative declaration of war. In any event, maybe NATO just needs go squeak by four years without an Article 5 invocation to be back to normal.
- jgilias 2y agoWith the current pace of how things are developing, we might not be able to squeak by four years.